Introduction of the LS

[Gannet]

With the appearance on e bay of LS11413, I have realised that the LS was produced a lot earlier than I originally thought. I have no idea what the first serial number was, except of course it was actually 11413 or earlier.

As we are aware, the LS engine is basically a longer stroke version of the FV/FVP engine. It obviously has a bigger crankcase assembly, a slightly longer block and the same basic canted oval tank was mounted in a more sensible horizontal plane. Although did later LSs have a different tank?
The stroke, as has been pointed out to me by Charles L in a previous post is the same as the 102cc engines.
The LS engine mated to the FVP drive train made, I believe, the FVP redundant, and thus I suspect FVP production ceased.
On the data that I have been trying to collect, there are no FVPs after LS11413. I know that I have recorded only a miniscule quantity of these early Forty series and this is probably an invitation for suddenly lots of latter FVPs to appear!

After the LS was introduced, the FV continued to be produced as the small gearbox version. I suspect, but do not know, that the FV was produced up to the introduction of the SJM. Does anybody know when production of the FV ceased?
The production of the LS continued up to and slightly after the introduction of the SJP, with probably the last one being LS38344, as detailed on the main SOS site.

The model ident letters (initially) were quite logical:-
1. Fs were so called because the engine capacity was 40cc and the series was called ‘Forty’.
2. When the Villiers carb was fitted it became FV.
3. When the bigger gearbox was introduced it became the ‘Plus’ version ie FVP.
4. I propose the suggestion that the LS was such called as it stood for Long Stroke.

Serial Numbers that I have collected (sounds like collecting train numbers!) in the 10000 to 22000 range are:-
FVP10021, FVP10090(?), LS11413, FV11716, FV12508, LS12667, LS13081, LS13824, FV14942, FV19304(?), FV19742, LS20964L, LS21487.

I am sure there are hundreds more out there. I would be interested in knowing, even if they are just crankcases.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[Keith.P]

I did notice one thing with the older LS, it started with the screw in drive tube like the FV/FVP and then had the pinch bolt, which has the bolt at the front, but got changed again to a bolt behind the drive tube, like you see on the later motors, just less chance of getting that part damaged, I suspect.

[charlesp]

I have a schematic showing an LS which descvribes the motor as the "Super Forty Plus". Maybe the L did indeed stand for "Long Stroke", perhaps the "S" for "Super"

That would allow for the LM - as in Long Stroke Minus.

These transitional models are a difficult bunch to comprehend, and I must congratulate you on your efforts thus far. My own meagre attempts merely give me a headache.

Within the LS/LM models there is also the tank difference. I can't remember if anyone has mentioned it. The earlier ones had the more rounded tank ends - looking for all the world just like Little Model Forty long range tanks but horizontal. The later ones are more like the classic style.

For the record, Gannet, I have just popped out to the workshop to whip the flywheel cover of my LM. The cover bears the "for the world" legend, and the numbers are 511/49/2.

From what you've deduced that puts the flywheel itself at 1949, which is not what I would have expected. This flywheel has not been swapped since I have had the motor, naturally I don't know what earlier owners may have got up to. I do know, of course, that the factory reconditioned the motor at some point, complete with what looks like a new gearbox, but I would have expected them to put a new flywheel on at the time rather than an earlier one. From what I have been told spares were simply taken off the rack rather than a separate "repairs" holding of components.

[Gannet]

Thanks Charles for your comments.

There is nothing like speculation about events 60 years ago, when we know so little!
At least suggesting something gives opportunity for others to point out the errors in ones thinking.

Yes, names of products from organisations can come in two forms. One is from the technical/design dept and perhaps another name from the sales/advertising people.
Super Forty Plus sounds like a sales dept name! Perhaps LS (for Long Stroke???) was the technical dept notation. We will probably never know.

LM - the flywheel numbers you quote (511/49/2) are very different to the number that I have noted on my flywheels, ie:-
R63/A6M/7 50 ie July 1950
R63 A 61 M 5/52 It might be R63 A 07 M 5/52 ie May 1952
R82 A80E 5-55 ie May 1952
R82 A80 4 58 ie April 1958

These numbers are sometimes difficult to discern.
At some later stage the flywheel do not appear to be numbered.
Are you sure that your LM does not have the above type of numbers?

Thanks for your comments about the tank corner radius change with the LS. I get the very vague impression that the change from large rad to a smaller rad was quite early on.
Keith,
Thanks for your comments about the clench bolt. It sounds similar to the change with the SJM.
Jeremy

[charlesp]

Jeremy the idea that a particular model was known as one thing to one bunch of people in British Seagull, yet marketed bay another bunch is perfectly feasible, even in a tiny company such as they were. Indeed more than one name during the development of a motor is reasonable too.

I have been looking over the adverts on the main site again. The 'Here you are little dinghy' advert - here:

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/i_ ... 0%20p1.jpg

shows the young woman holding her gleaming little motor. They don't gleam like that in real life after a few trips of course, and naturally the fair sex is infinitely less likely to go anywhere near them as a result, but the picture in interesting. Amongst other things we can note:

1) It's an early advert introducing the new product.

2) The tank bears what I reckon must have been a smaller version of the old "marston" style decal.

3) The fuel line is a composite component - part flexible, part metal.

4) The prop is a 2 bladed one, which puts it at the very first part of the production timeline.

5) The throttle is war-time Amal.

6) No lettering on the flywheel cover

7) As you would expect the carburettor is the tiny Amal that I covet.

So there's no doubt at all that this refers to an early (1949) motor, and it's even probable that the artwork antedates the first production batch. We've seen this in other models, and indeed the practice isn't confines to outboards or even British Seagull. But it's interesting that at the bottom left there is reference to the new 'Model 40 Plus', which I think it's safe to assume is the larger brother which we know as the FVP - or maybe even an FP if the series nomenclature is maintained?

It's the later drawing :

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/i_ ... rawing.gif

which represents an LS, and in the bottom left corner it refers to the 'Super Forty Plus'. That name has surfaced on advertising, too, but I can't lay my hands on it.

Given Way-Hope's love of meaningful acronyms I lean towards your 'Long Stroke' theory. It now remains only to work out what 'SJP' and 'SJM' were all about...

Please could you clear up a confusion for me - we know that later forties were 64cc, and your diligence has discovered the earliest were 40cc. Did we not earlier surmise that a model of about 55cc was produced or am I (as I increasingly suspect) becoming even more mentally frail?

That same advert on the SOS page is tantralising. I would dearly love to play with the air cooled prototype!

[Collector Inspector]

Great Post and fantastic Reading.

Thank you.

B

[Gannet]

Yes Charles, according to my measurement of the stroke of FVs, I reckon, as you surmise, that the capacity is 55.4cc.

I really like that ad 'Here you are little dinghy''. In fact I have a copy pinned up in the workshop. I don't think my wife would want to put her bare hands anywhere near the little oily thing!
the text accompanying it is a great read.
Is there another ad with a girl in pig tails carrying it? That really is stretching reality too much!

The two blade prop I think must have been as you state, for the first batch. My F201 has a 3 blade prop, which (like Jan's F341) does not have a bronze bush - ie the propshaft 'runs' directly on the aluminium. The blades are slightly smaller than later FV props.

You know about how BS operated, and it would be typical of companies for the sales people to come up with a flashy name for the public after the technical staff had assigned a name/notation to their latest creation. Nothing wrong in that.

You did ask what does SJM and SJP stand for:-
Well, following the F (Forty), FV (Forty Villiers), FVP (Forty Villiers Plus), LS (Long Stroke) - all very descriptive, the only significant difference (from the LS) with the SJM/SJP was the block; in which it had proper crankcase water jacket sealing. It had in effect a Sealed Jacket.
Thus for the small gearbox version -SJM Sealed Jacket Minus.
And for the big gearbox version - SJP Sealed Jacket Plus.
The public would not take to those names, so it was called something else in the lterature etc.
This of course is complete speculation on my behalf.

Bruce - glad you are enjoying the discussion.

Jeremy

[charlesp]

Sealed Jacket. I like it! It's the very first plausible explanation.

There was a little girl with pigtails...

littlegirl.jpg (20.64 KiB) Viewed 2016 times

This one is perhaps my favourite picture from the whole pantheon of British Seagull advertising. The girl is happily steering her hugely overloaded dinghy way far too far out to sea, she's smiling, the family labrador is posted as bow lookout, and there is a noticeable absence of personal buoyancy.

She appeared all over their advertising, and I have images of her on a petrol can of the era. I also have copies of a photograph of the original girl.

I love that picture!

[charlesp]

Sorry about the first attempt, this one isn't much better.

Here's the can, or at least one side of it.

Not strictly LS or Little Model Forty, of course, but you asked about pigtails...

[Gannet]

Charles,

I really like that petrol can with the advert on it. Great.

In my blurb about the differences between the LS and SJP, I had forgotten to mention that I believe that the SJP (and of course SJM) introduced the two 5/16" studs/nuts securing method for the drive shaft tube to the crankcase. I don't believe even LS had this feature as I think they retained the ring calmp until the end of production. Certainly the photo of LS35744 in a recent post(thanks Jon) which is quite a late one had the ring clamp.

LM flywheel numbers. I expect that you have looked and played with more flywheels than I have (quite sad!), however all my Villiers flywheels do bear the rather long ident numbers that I have stated in this post a few days ago. With the exception of R34 5 A80 1/63, which was stamped on the outside diameter, they were all stamped on the top face under the flywheel cover.
It would be quite odd if your LM did not have this sequence of numbers. But then again odd and BS do go together!

You mentioned the air cooled version. Was this ever produced, or did it just get to the design stage? it would be quite a find if it was actually made.

Jeremy

[pat777]

This is the link to where those adverts, where the experimental air cooled model is mentioned.

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/i_ ... _forty.htm

The following 4 pages have been sent in by Terry from the Isle of Skye. It is said we learn something every day, but from these you will learn something that I do not think anyone knew. the Little Forty series, started, experimentally as an air cooled motor!

[pat777]

A quote from the advert blurb...

The "Little Model 40" follows in the general "Seagull" tradition in this respect, in many ways it is a miniature "102"... and for what more could one wish?

However, the superlative performance of this little "102 in miniature" was not achieved by accident.

It's the result of most thorough research and experimental work in the best Seagull tradition, so thorough in fact that several experimental motors were built, both air cooled and water cooled, and a number of different cylinder head designs were submitted to the most exhaustive tests.

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/i_ ... _forty.htm

[charlesp]

I've had another look, and the numbers I quoted are there, right enough.

This is, as I've said, a reconditioned motor, and who knows what may have transpired during its life.

As for your reather good suggestion about 'Sealed Jacket' leading to SJM and SJP, I have thought about this at length (even sadder than playing with flywheels) and for the life of me I have yet to come up with a better one!

I have thought about these things in the past. I remember enquiring of someone who should have known what the 'G' stood for in the Bing carburettor versions of the forties later on in the series. I just couldn't figure out where a 'G' came from when the only difference was the carburettor itself. "Oh that's easy", said my chum. "they were going to call it a 'BFP'for 'Bing Forty Plus', but they reckoned the 'B' could be mistaken for an '8'. So they used 'G' for "German". With thinking like that we cannot rely on logic alone...

British Seagull did try to branch out into different directions with their motors. I have seen a cylinder head made for a paraffin (kerosene) fuelled motor, I've seen helical gears for gearboxes, and I've seen plastic gearbox bearings that were tested later in the life of the company. I have a 'British Seagull' oil lamp in the workshop, and I know of the whereabouts of a British Seagull Puffa Jacket (remember them?).

[Adrian Dale]

Due to this post I went on a quest to find a LS and succeeded just 10k (Australian measurements) from my door. This motor like many others had languished in a shed for 30 years except for one disastrous trip that resulted in the gearbox, water pump and driveshaft falling off... Now, addressing the owner, I informed him that a very critical historical investigation was being conducted in the UK were by the whereabouts of all known LS Seagulls is to be compiled. As a member of the forum, I encouraged him to participate in this interesting and important project and that the best way to achieve this was to pass the engine or at least its remains to me. I am now the proud owner of LS18407 less gearbox and other vital parts. The good news is that the price was $0 the bad news is that I now need to find said missing parts. may have to extend my area of search.

ill post some photos of the motor which I think is very original... By the way after the usual checks and lubrication ( for both me and the gull) it started third pull I guess that's one for each decade it been laying around.. AJ

[headdownarseup]

AJ
send me a pm. i might be able to help with a gearbox.
i've got loads of them for most types of seagulls.

jon