I have a CPCL with Seagull-Villiers carburettor and an ESC with Amal carburettor. The ESC has a frozen piston and short shaft. The CPCP has a longshagt with bunged up exhaust Flange and Water Pump Housing (bosses for through bolt hole are broken). Is it possible to fit the ESC Silencer Tube and Casing Tube to the CPCL block assembly to get a whole motor? Which carburettor should I use? What issues/problems might I encounter? Will I be accused of not being "pure" and bastardizing a wonderful piece of British Machinery?
Operational questions: What is the purpose of the Reverse Lock Sleeve?
Is the Depth Adjusting Collar shown in the Service Manual a Seagull part or must one make one at home?
Advice please:
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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bruce nickerson
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:06 pm
- Location: USA- Boston area
Hmmm yes it's possible. An ESC is basically a Silver Century with electronic ignition and an improved gearbox.
Although the CPC is the same bore and stroke, the inlet stub on the block will only allow the Villiers carburettor to be fitted. Really that motor could do with the Amal, and the right block to go with it. The model 75 is a good motor, the earlier type power head will leave it a bit gutless.
So it might be better to unfreeze the ESC. Have a look at the forum for advice on this one before attempting it, however.
Depth adjusting collars have been around since they started in 1931, when they were a rather superior device with a wingnut and there are very few about.
Wartime and later Seagulls supplied to the Military used an Amal Carburettor retaining ring, it does the same job. Fifties and later used eith an alloy or plastic pair of bracket fixing lugs. Try John, he'll be able to supply you. Either that or there's one or more on eBay right now.
Good luck, come back if you need more...
Although the CPC is the same bore and stroke, the inlet stub on the block will only allow the Villiers carburettor to be fitted. Really that motor could do with the Amal, and the right block to go with it. The model 75 is a good motor, the earlier type power head will leave it a bit gutless.
So it might be better to unfreeze the ESC. Have a look at the forum for advice on this one before attempting it, however.
Depth adjusting collars have been around since they started in 1931, when they were a rather superior device with a wingnut and there are very few about.
Wartime and later Seagulls supplied to the Military used an Amal Carburettor retaining ring, it does the same job. Fifties and later used eith an alloy or plastic pair of bracket fixing lugs. Try John, he'll be able to supply you. Either that or there's one or more on eBay right now.
Good luck, come back if you need more...
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bruce nickerson
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:06 pm
- Location: USA- Boston area
more help pls
charlesp: Thx for your help and info.
Is Amal a better carb than Villiers? Is ESC head higher compression than CPC?
What is improved about the ESC gearbox?
What are other differences between ESC and CPC? Is the CPC worth saving or is it better as a parts motor? How about soaking the ESC block and crankcase assembly in kereosene (parrafin) for a while to loosen it up?
Bruce
Is Amal a better carb than Villiers? Is ESC head higher compression than CPC?
What is improved about the ESC gearbox?
What are other differences between ESC and CPC? Is the CPC worth saving or is it better as a parts motor? How about soaking the ESC block and crankcase assembly in kereosene (parrafin) for a while to loosen it up?
Bruce
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Charles UK
Bruce they are both carbs that will do the same job as well as each other as they were designed to do.
If you told us of your application/motification & location we could give you a bespoke answer, but I feel you will have to strip both engines & take to a local expert for a visual inspection/ decision.
If you had filled in your profile properly we could have given you the details of the whereabouts of your experts, but guessing from your questions I would say your an Onion eater thinking of doing the RISR.
If I'm right, carefully get both of them running on the back of the hull you plan to use, then we can start to mix & match.
If you told us of your application/motification & location we could give you a bespoke answer, but I feel you will have to strip both engines & take to a local expert for a visual inspection/ decision.
If you had filled in your profile properly we could have given you the details of the whereabouts of your experts, but guessing from your questions I would say your an Onion eater thinking of doing the RISR.
If I'm right, carefully get both of them running on the back of the hull you plan to use, then we can start to mix & match.
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bruce nickerson
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:06 pm
- Location: USA- Boston area
Advice please:
Charles UK: Thank you for your suggestions about the profile. I went back and tried to fill out the profile more completely, hope it is now "properly" done and would appreciate your feedback re: its completeness and correctness. I am puzzled about what an "Onion eater" is and why one would be "thinking of doing the RISR (what's that?)" I expect the term "motification" is a spoonerism combining "modification" and "motor?" Was it Churchill who suggested Americans and Brits are divided by a common language?
Charlesp: What is difference between the blocks with reference to the inlet stubs. Was the difference in power due tio the block configuration (my 2 blocks have inlet stubs on opposite sides of block?) and/or different heads, and/or carburettors?
Again thank you both for your help and advice.
Charlesp: What is difference between the blocks with reference to the inlet stubs. Was the difference in power due tio the block configuration (my 2 blocks have inlet stubs on opposite sides of block?) and/or different heads, and/or carburettors?
Again thank you both for your help and advice.
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Charles UK
An Onion eater is a Bermudian & the RISR is their Round the Island Seagull Race.
It must not be forgotten that the CPC is a 50+ year old outboard, with tired bearings & rings, that was designed to run on a 10 : 1 fuel mix, whereas the 416 carb was jetted for a 25 : 1 mix with a 95 jet.
I don't think anyone would recommend running a CPC at 25 : 1, unless it has hardly been used & finding a 100 or a 105 Amal jet, so that it could run 10 : 1, would be almost impossible as British Seagull never used those sizes.
The difference in power if there was any, is due to the gearbox ratios & the fact that the ESC had electronic CDI ignition & oil seals in the gearbox permitting it to use 90 weight gear oil instead of 140.
The only sure way to know, is to get them both running properly & try them both on the same hull with a GPS in your hand.
I would back the ESC to win but my maximum wager would be 1$ & I think it would be quite a close result.
Let me know the result & where to send your winnings.
It must not be forgotten that the CPC is a 50+ year old outboard, with tired bearings & rings, that was designed to run on a 10 : 1 fuel mix, whereas the 416 carb was jetted for a 25 : 1 mix with a 95 jet.
I don't think anyone would recommend running a CPC at 25 : 1, unless it has hardly been used & finding a 100 or a 105 Amal jet, so that it could run 10 : 1, would be almost impossible as British Seagull never used those sizes.
The difference in power if there was any, is due to the gearbox ratios & the fact that the ESC had electronic CDI ignition & oil seals in the gearbox permitting it to use 90 weight gear oil instead of 140.
The only sure way to know, is to get them both running properly & try them both on the same hull with a GPS in your hand.
I would back the ESC to win but my maximum wager would be 1$ & I think it would be quite a close result.
Let me know the result & where to send your winnings.
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40TPI
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:08 pm
- Location: North Buckinghamshire, 110 miles south of Yorkshire, England.
Looks like both Charles' are still enjoying lunch... I'll try and move it on a bit.
If you look at the inlet stub on the port side of the CPC block you will measure the outside diameter at approx 19mm. This matches a Villiers carb The stbd inlet stub on the ESC is approx 22mm diameter and matches the AMAL carb.
Clearly you can't fit the Villiers carb onto the larger ESC block stub nor can you easily fit the AMAL on to the smaller CPC block. ( It has been done, using thin adaptor sleeves to make up the difference, and these were once commercially available, but that's really an academic exercise here.)
The CPC Villiers carb will most likely have the original 10:1 fuel/oil ratio needle fitted. The later ESC AMAL carb will have a 25:1 main jet fitted. Both blocks are 102cc. and have the same bore and stroke as Charles has already stated. Putting aside the general preference most people would have for the AMAL to give them the edge on output power the real difference comes from the gearbox ratios.
The CPC is a Century Plus and has the the large 12:48 ratio box and eleven inch hydrofan prop. The ESC has the 12:30 and smaller nine inch prop. The CPC has more "bollard pull" than the ESC.
The CPC leg is identical to the leg fitted to Silver Century blocks to make a Silver Century Plus so there is no real "bastardizing" going on. True the transom clamps and other details are a different style on the later WSPC/EFNR but worse things happen at sea I'm told.
The last detail, which Charles UK likely referred to as "motivation", is what do you want to achieve? One is longshaft , one is short; what do you really need? If you were thinking of using a depth collar on the CPC there is a problem. The depth collar you refer to is for 29mm shafts fitted to all motors except the Century Plus , Silver Century Plus and some later motors that have 32 mm diameter shafts over most of their lengths. You could jury rig (USA cludge) something to do the same job the CPC shaft. So it does seem to be a case of continuing to do a strip down and triage on what you have whilst deciding on your goals.
Hope that helps...
Peter
If you look at the inlet stub on the port side of the CPC block you will measure the outside diameter at approx 19mm. This matches a Villiers carb The stbd inlet stub on the ESC is approx 22mm diameter and matches the AMAL carb.
Clearly you can't fit the Villiers carb onto the larger ESC block stub nor can you easily fit the AMAL on to the smaller CPC block. ( It has been done, using thin adaptor sleeves to make up the difference, and these were once commercially available, but that's really an academic exercise here.)
The CPC Villiers carb will most likely have the original 10:1 fuel/oil ratio needle fitted. The later ESC AMAL carb will have a 25:1 main jet fitted. Both blocks are 102cc. and have the same bore and stroke as Charles has already stated. Putting aside the general preference most people would have for the AMAL to give them the edge on output power the real difference comes from the gearbox ratios.
The CPC is a Century Plus and has the the large 12:48 ratio box and eleven inch hydrofan prop. The ESC has the 12:30 and smaller nine inch prop. The CPC has more "bollard pull" than the ESC.
The CPC leg is identical to the leg fitted to Silver Century blocks to make a Silver Century Plus so there is no real "bastardizing" going on. True the transom clamps and other details are a different style on the later WSPC/EFNR but worse things happen at sea I'm told.
The last detail, which Charles UK likely referred to as "motivation", is what do you want to achieve? One is longshaft , one is short; what do you really need? If you were thinking of using a depth collar on the CPC there is a problem. The depth collar you refer to is for 29mm shafts fitted to all motors except the Century Plus , Silver Century Plus and some later motors that have 32 mm diameter shafts over most of their lengths. You could jury rig (USA cludge) something to do the same job the CPC shaft. So it does seem to be a case of continuing to do a strip down and triage on what you have whilst deciding on your goals.
Hope that helps...
Peter