Silver Century Overhaul Start Up Issues

[Captainchuckles]

Hi All
Firstly, thank you to the admin for registering me, i have long referenced the site for helpful and useful knowledge in keeping my Silvery Century Plus SPCL 1040N8 alive and kicking, this old engine was originally purchased new by my Great Uncle for his coble the 'Lively Peggy', harbourmaster at St Abbs, East Coast, has been in our family all my life, and we have a lot of love for her.
So...to my issue...last full overhaul of this engine was by my Grandfather roughly 9 years ago...i inherited the engine and our Orkney longliner..since then i have used the engine various seasons in the last few years, only changing the gearbox oil regularly, flushing after use with fresh water at the end of the season and a new spark plug. Engine would typically start on the 1st or 2nd pull in the harbour, at sea and hot, sometimes 4th or 5th pull. I decided this year, prior to the season, to fully overhaul the engine, carrying out the following:
Carb clean / Fuel tank clean/ Fuel line replaced / sparkplug replaced / all gasket and seals replaced / typical oil change / new throttle cable / water jacket flow tunnels cleaned/ and refreshing all split pins and washers where necessary. I did not touch the flywheel in anyway.
So i put her all back together piece by piece, taking care that all seals were sound and everything was present and correct from various labelled bags (Seagull OCD )
So i went to start, following the usual procedure, no joy, tried again, no joy, tried again, no joy, scratched head for a bit ...followed the usual procedure again...no joy.. ...SO..stopped, and checked through the usual, fuel flow fine, tried another spark plug..plenty of compression..this went on for a while until all relevant areas had been checked, nothing seemed amiss..so i began to pull, and pull and pull (yes i know this flies in the face of the Seagull bible)...each time with each pull the engine got stronger and closer to kicking into life...after the 16th pull i had more life (and a little bit of smoke...after the 20th more...engine fired on the 26TH PULL!...ran like a dream for an hour..sounded great..water cooling perfect..throttle perfect. Turned it off, went for a bite to eat, came back and tried again. Same procedure..started on the 8TH PULL..ran like a dream for another 45mins. Left it for 30 mins...started again...6th PULL..
So...finally, to my question (thank you for your patience on the background), why is it suddenly taking so many pulls, and then the number of pulls are slowly decreasing the more it runs. Has anyone else experienced this? Is the engine essentially breaking itself in after the overhaul? Everything is operational, but do i need to take off the flywheel and carry out maintenance in this area, as i am struggling to see anywhere other than that area? Or, do i keep running her regularly and she will get back to the good old 2 pull start?
Many Thanks
Colven

[Stelios_Rjk]

Welcome on board!

That had happened once to me when an external condenser I had added, had the wire worn. Since you are using a villiers ignition you should at least measure the resistance between the HT lead (spark plug cap metal bit) to the ground (cylinder head etc). You should get a reading of 3-5Kohms. Villiers coils are all old and the internals has started decomposing. In case you use it on your boat it would be highly recommended to replace it with a new one. I know it costs but getting back safe is priceless
In case you do get a reading your coil still looks fine but there are no guarantees for how long it will last.

Cleaning and reseting the points may also improve the situation but since you haven't touch them so far maybe it's the coil dying or wrong spark plug gap.

In the FAQs on the main site there is a suggestion using a drill to turn the engine if it doesn't give spark. Only for villiers ignitions. Well 26 pulls is close to the drill solution.

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/faq2.html#spark

Have a look also there.

[Captainchuckles]

Hey Stelios

Thanks for the reply, i know what you mean about getting back safe, my arms buggered from pulling the cord, so the oars are out of the question

Yeah, i read with interest about the drill re-magnetising procedure, and multiple pulls in quick succession (i felt like i was flogging a slave on the roman galleys of old ) would probably re-create this. An electrician is my next door neighbour, so i will get him to measure the resistance, and i can examine the spark gap, but i am really under the impression the flywheel will have to come off and some maintenance will be required, as you say, contacts cleaned etc to let the current through, im just loathe to open this area. I do take your point about accepting the cost of a new coil...why not go the full hog...shes worth it after all, so is probably best all round.

Cheers......i'll update you on my progress
Colven

[Michael]

If it has been sitting for years, I would start by removing flywheel nut and flywheel cover and then dress the points. then check for a good healthy blue spark

[Captainchuckles]

Hi Guys
thx Michael, but she was just running last April-October, never skipped a beat

So...I get the flywheel nut off..AFTER much coaxing ...I then enlisted the help of 'She who buys shoes not wellies'..and handed her the hammer..she must of thought she was smashing my fishing rod, cause one firm hit and it was off...
Really surprised...very clean and dry inside..no evidence of heat damage to coil (original sticker with part number slightly peeling at corner)..took the cap of the condenser..dry and clean inside..although points needed a little clean..checked points gap with feeler...v tight at 20 thou..spring good..removed small nut..changed out the terminal fitting..nothing looked amiss..certaimly nothing that would take 26 odd pulls...so put that back together..re-examined the coil..evidence that the insulation surrounding wire from coil to condenser was cracking and brittle, moved it back and forward lightly..didnt feel right in centre, carefully cut the insulation off with a craft knife..halfway through noticed that there was a slight split on insulation underneath..2 strands broken and trailing...

Wonder if these were brushing flywheel casing...or causing weakness or a short intermittently...I know that when I was holding sparkplug to transom and pulled wheel by hand I was getting a wee blue spark now and again?....anyway...stripped old insulation, re-joined broken strands of wire...and re-insulated..did this by stripping a household earth wire..sliced down middle and then gently eased the bare wire in...then covered with insulating tape..nice tight job...

Was dark then and next door neighbours kids in bed, so couldn't fire her up in the barrel in fear of wakin the cherubs, so will give her a try in the morning and post my findings....

Cheers
Colven

[Stelios_Rjk]

That's a nice finding. I mean easy to repair and by the time the flywheel came of that easily everything is fine.

I remembered once I had an engine that wasn't starting unless I was holding the HT lead with wood away from the engine. Worn insulation I believe, when replaced everything returned to normal.

Check also with the neighbor the coil if you like. I mean the resistance.


Cheers
S

[Captainchuckles]

Morning Guys
So update...we have a 2nd pull start...no mucking about...tickled carb..throttle fully open..1st pull sounded really healthy..AND she nearly fired up then ...2nd pull burst into life..running happily now in the barrel.

Only points I would note for others, is that the wire between the coil and condenser seems too long for purpose (probably to keep it away from touching), but was kind of hanging in a semi circle limp...much better tightened up just enough then insulated...less movement in the casing.

Stelios...REALLY SURPRISED casing came off keyway so easily after a long time. followed the instructions on here...after coaxing the flywheel nut off (which incidentally was harder to get off than the casing! needed a few light cracks with a screwdriver and hammer to get it moving)..just sprayed some WD40 liberally into the keyway...went for a beer..came back with the lady (marigolds and apron...for hammering dear?...very fetching)...turned so piston was fully back from plughole...lifted..she whacked it..and off it came..

Think its definitely worth getting neighbour to check that resistance....DOES this coil survive for yet another season?..looks in good shape...but a spare may definitely be on the cards....On that point, does Villiers still supply M1634.E...I see one on www.villiersservices.co.uk for £37.50...anyone know if this is an alternative remake of the same part...or the actual part..and is this price competitive??????

Many Thanks
Colven

[Stelios_Rjk]

Really happy that it started as normal!

The resistance can tell about the condition of coil. What it looks has no relation to what's inside. This part is at least 46-50 years old. The copper wire inside will have formed green spots as it corrodes. Yours should be in better condition than others but still is at the end of its life. It can works for some years but no one can tell for sure if it will die tomorrow or after 5 or 10 years.

The coil you need is this one

http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php ... ucts_id=29

And it is in good price. There are other alternatives if you search a little bit.

[headdownarseup]

hi colven.
ah yes, the good old villiers?
many an old seagull with villiers ignition has succombed to being thrown on the scrap heap because of these coils.
GENTLY DOES IT. those weeny little screws and nuts on the bottom of the magneto baseplate can be very stubborn to shift.
before you go full throttle on swapping out the coil, check and DOUBLE CHECK that resistance first. measure from where the ht lead sits against the coil (positive or +) and the other lead of your measuring device on either the coil cheek(triangle bits at either end of the coil) or inside the points box, you can measure where the "fly lead" attaches to the points, or any good ground. if you get a strong resistance then leave well alone.

villiers magnetos can be tempremental little buggers sometimes? as you've said earlier, after 26 pulls of trying to start and then only just spluttering into life, i would just check everything underneath the flywheel again. even just by cleaning, refacing and regapping the points is enough to bring back to life a "dead" ignition.
ht leads can also start to break down inside, which can also give you the same symptoms.
alternatively, if you're not too bothered with authenticity, you could swap the villiers magneto for a wipac magneto(gold flywheel) and its a direct swap! (a little bit easier to work on as well) and some would say a bit more reliable.

the coils that you see advertised on ebay etc are not quite the same but will do the job all the same. the ones at villiers parts are i think a direct replacement for what you have already.

as mentioned, changing a coil over is not a 30 min job. you will more than likely break a screw or nut as a result. a blow torch comes in handy for this, but before you go swapping coils measure resistance first. if after cleaning and regapping etc. its still a bit hit and miss, then you might have to take the plunge.

ask stelios, as he's changed a coil before. (its not easy)

plenty of help on here just ask

jon

[Stelios_Rjk]

Indeed! In the case of a dead coil.
When you have removed the points box you can throw in hell the cheeks holding the coil with your blowtorch. Since it's dead there's nothing to harm. That would free the studs and screws. Plus some lubricant in the holes above them. Or quenching in water or diesel.

[Captainchuckles]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the heads up, I think that price is pretty reasonable, and as you state Stelios,its not whats on the outside.

However, as stated by our learned friend, is it really a part I want to be removing if I can get a few more seasons, so definitely gonna go down the resistance route, hopefully with a friend of mine who has dealt with Villiers for years, as he's a trail biking and general old motorbike enthusiast, he has a good handle on these things.

Bloody shame to think people would scrap a seagull for a failed coil

Now on the Wipac Vs Villiers, reading across the forum a lot of people seem to endorse the transfer to Wipac, is it really more reliable?...don't mind a bit of hard work...as you say,i think the key to seagull is heat and patience...lots of heat and patience .

I like 'puttin' along....driven by the engine my great uncle, grandfather used..and will probably try to keep it as authentic as possible...although my friends with their 25-50HP on the back of their jallopy's think I'm a throwback (I'm 36, and they don't see Seagulls as trendy, although these are the same weekend warriors who don't bail the boat out after 2 weeks of rain, have no idea of engine maintenance and then the below happens which my Son was quite tickled with ). I'll stick to old faithful.

Thanks for the help guys
Much appreciated
Colven

[Stelios_Rjk]

I agree 100%
Since you can handle the situation, when it's time I think the best is to replace the coil. Especially when you have on your hands an honored engine!

By the way check your personal messages.


Cheers
S

[headdownarseup]

hi colven (again)

the ignition swap will take you probably 30 mins. (as long as you can undo the screw that holds the baseplate to the crankcase)
once you've got the villiers magneto off, give it to your buddy to look at.
in the meantime use the motor with the wipac and see how you get on.

i agree with using these older motors. fast they aint. full of character- definitely. built for heavy work- you bet.
i love em to bits but my preference is for the older 102 instead of the square block century. good motor all the same the century.

testament to british engineering.
i tend to work on the principle of KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. and simple ,these motors definitely are. that's why there are still a lot of them going today. if you look after your seagull it should outlast your mates mercs and suzi's. (who's gonna be laughing then i wonder?)

jon

[Captainchuckles]

Hey Guys
Yes, its definitely a bug...a guy round the harbour who is the secretary for the lifeboat station has approached me twice about the '2 seagulls sitting in my shed, don't know the models, but I inherited them from a friend and didn't have the heart to throw them out..would you be interested in buying?'...might have to knock on his door next time im passing Lets be honest....you cannae have enough Seagulls..and my Son and I love a project...especially if its Sea related...AND theres not enough days at Sea
Watch this space...(if the Wife doesn't kill me)
Cheers Colven

[Captainchuckles]

Evening Guys

Just a quick update, so....3 days ago im standing in the garden...blowtorch at the ready...visions of all the youtube videos of guys applying intense heat to machinery soaring through my brain..AND...I bottled it I couldn't face setting a blowtorch on any part of my Seagull...So how do I get the bloody coil off...hmmmmmmm ....so had a cuppa and came up with a last ditch alternative before letting all hell loose..

So, I got a drip tray and bought 5 x 100ml sprays of the miracle fluid passed down to us by the Gods...WD40..i sprayed the tray until I had a level of liquid..full can...and left the underside of the baseplate in it...next day did the same...full can...yesterday did the same..

Victory!!!...came off no problem..no damage...no bent screws...threads are all good...and the new coil is on its way

Now I realise I am probably very lucky that the innards were not as corroded solid...BUT I am so glad that by taking the extra time...I didn't have to apply the flame...anyway, an alternative method...if you've got a few days and some patience..

Thanks again for all your help, and thank you Stelios for confirming the part (I still have a new HT lead coming to... ...lets cover all those bases...shes given us years of pleasure..and fingers crossed many more..

I will keep the old coil as spare BUT if anyone needs it its not completely buggered and would maybe do a couple of seasons inshore,lake etc, so feel free if anyone would like it, needs it, or generally want it (museum curators welcome) then drop me a pm I could post it on.

Thanks again
Colven