40+ 1964 Villiers ignition issue??

[cajuncook1]

Compression 125 psi single cylinder

cleaned and set the point to 0.020

spark plug has a gap at .025 inch and makes a good spark when grounded.

spark tester is set about 5/16 inch and no less than 1/4 inch.

- I get good spark at higher rpms when rope starting, but at lower rpms or hand turning the flywheel I get no spark.

Are my magnets weak?? The screw drive easily get pulled and stuck on the magnets.


I'm suspecting my ignition because if I put fuel mix in cylinder it only weakly pops.

I am currently cleaning the carburetor because I have down time and wait for your response back.



Here are some pictures of the ignition and a video testing for spark.








Video of spark testing





Thanks for any help

[Keith.P]

I would replace the points wire for a start and rather than test for a spark, I would test the coil and lead first.
Magnets sound ok.

This may point you in the right direction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT8rk5QWgS0

[Stelios_Rjk]

By hand I haven't get spark ever. Only with the rope. 125psi sounds a lot. Even 50psi for a 40+ is OK. Maybe you are reading something else?
Are you using oil in your mixture? Are piston rings OK?

[Charles uk]

Isn't the plug gap meant to be 20 thou, 0.5mm?

[1650bullet]

What happens if you remove the spark tester and hook the spark plug up and earth it out against the cyl block--head or anything metal. Im sure it should spark if you turn the flywheel by hand.If not you can close the points gap up a bit. The FAQs section on here says that you can use a gap of 10 to 30 Thou to get a good spark. Set your plug gap to 20 thou (thats what it should be at) My 40-plus was doing this once and i fixed the problem by closing the point gap up a bit. Ive noticed some insulation missing from the coil end of the points wire from your photos. Wrap something around it to insulate it.


I have cut and pasted this from the FAQs section for you (see below)


How do I change the timing?

You don’t, it’s fixed. The small screw under the ignition back plate locates in a dimple in the upper crankcase, that’s it.

The points setting printed on my engine is less than 20 thou, why?

Years ago, with different fuels that was the setting. Now all points are set to 20. It is to do with the fuel we use now. We needed to change the ignition timing slightly see bills note below.

I have had more on the reasons for different gaps from Bill Crossley, Thanks Bill.

As an old and retired navy engineer I have some experience in tuning combustion engines. In a fixed point ignition system, like a seagull motor, the only way to retard or advance the spark is by varying the points gap. You will find points in different makes of engines set at varying gaps from 10 to 30 thou, there is no perfect gap it is mostly a function of engine speed and the designer picking an easy setting to remember. The gap is set by engine design to occur at an exact point before top dead centre (TDC) to give max power in that particular engine. Opening the points gap will advance the timing and reducing the gap will retard the spark. Both will reduce engine power and in some cases produce unwanted and noisy side effects. In an old motor, with below design compression, (through wear), a slight improvement in power might be obtained by advancing the ignition (because the charge is burning more slowly) and reaches max pressure just after TDC., the optimum point. i.e., open the points slightly. Without proper test gear this would be a hit and miss method and I wouldn't recommend it. However having said that, some fiddling with points gap could be done to see if the motor runs better and cures a problem which must be there before going down this track. It is important to check the wear and perfection of the long cam follower and set the points as dictated by your engine designer. An error of 1 or 2 thou makes a big difference in flywheel rotation and the instant of spark occurring, with a loss of engine power. Yours aye Bill Crossley.

[cajuncook1]

Gentlemen, thank very much for your time, suggestions, and supply of great information!!!

Spark plug

- I will reduce the gap to .020 inch
- when grounded against the motor the spark plug fires nicely and consistently.
- currently the points are gap to 0.020 in, but I will adjust range from .010 to .020 to try find the sweet spot.

I have a compression tester and it is known to be reliable. I retested another motor that I have 1955 15hp Evinrude Fastwin and it gave me known good results.

- I retested the 1964 SPJ 40 plus compression = 125 psi
- using 10:1 fuel with TC-W3 2 cycle motor oil in fresh unleaded 87 octane gasoline.

I will re-clean the points and check the continuity of the wires and check the viability of the coil with an analog meter. I will insulate the wire going to the points.


****Question. Is there a mark on the cam show where the high point is located for for purposes of setting the points gap??? The reason I ask this, is that OMC outboard motors have a machined dot or top labelled on the points cam as referrence for the highest point on the cam and that is when you set the points.

Thanks again gentlemen and I will updated you when I can.

David

[phil]

IIRC it's 23 degrees BTDC, someone here should be able to tell you how much that represents in piston movement.

[Collector Inspector]

Degree wheel and a measure down the spark plug hole.

B

[1650bullet]

This is what i do to set the points. Its very crude. But it does work and can get you running in no time.

Point the crankshaft key towards the spark plug until the piston is at TDC.

Then remove the brass point cover

Set the points at 9--10 thou

If your out on the water, You dont need the stress and hassle of carrying special tools to adjust the points.

Dont forget to rub a tiny bit of marine grease around the top of the crank B4 you fit the flywheel. It stops things from corroding.

[cajuncook1]

Degree wheel and a measure down the spark plug hole.

B

What is the measurement from the top of the spark plug hole to the top of the piston at TDC. I guess I could print up a degree wheel.

So, 23 degree off TDC...thanks Phil.


1650bullet will try your suggestion off the bat, so see if I can get her running. But would like to try the degree wheel and measurement to nail it dead on. But 1650bullet, that is an awesome suggestion for out on the water!!!

Cheer guys!! Thanks for the help, will keep you posted. Might not get back for about 3 or 4 days. Stuck at work all weekend!!

Cheers,

David

[phil]

23 degrees BTDC = before TDC , I'm sure you knew that , but in case someone reading this does not.

It might be easier to just remove the plug bring the flywheel to TDC put a wooden dowel in touching piston make a mark level with the face of the plug hole on the dowel. Also divide the circumference of the flywheel up to 4 sections making 4 marks, the first mark being lined up with he center of the plug hole, these will be 90 deg. apart. Divide the first 90 deg. Segment to the right of the flywheel in half=45 deg. Divide the 45 deg. segment closest the plug hole in half again, the last mark you made will be 22.5 deg. make each mark as fine (narrow) as possible.
When you turn the last mark counterclockwise to line up with the center of the plug hole, the points should just be opening at about 23 deg BTDC. Check opening point with a meter or a battery and flashlight (torch)bulb. Measure how far dowel has moved by making another mark. Takes lots of words but not that much time.

Personally I would not bother with all this unless something was drastically amiss, and would just assume that they should be open for setting when the flywheel cutout is centered over the points box. I don't think it is all that critical. Just try different gaps till it runs to your satisfaction.

[cajuncook1]

Well, despite having what I thought was good spark, my coil is bad. I was getting a nice minimum 1/4 inch spark with the checker, but my motor never would at least fire off when I put fuel mix in the cylinder.

I thought it was a timing issue so, I tried multiple suggested ways to set my point to maximize timing and combustion. All I got was an occasional weak pop, if you could call it that.

Then I lost spark all of a sudden. I then check the coil's primary and buried the needle. Then I check the secondary winding and nothing. I made sure by testing directly at the connection site of the high tension wire.

***Lesson learned on an old coil, that even though you are getting spark check the resistance of the coil's primary and secondary windings!!! It should have dawned on me that the motor should fired when I had put fuel mix in the cylinder.


Oh well, now to find a reasonably priced coil for this little lady!!

[Horsley-Anarak]

Some of us have been there. You see a spark, and with fingers crossed you think the coil is OK.

Then you get on the river, run it for a bit then it stops, no spark.

I think if you want a reliable villiers ignition Seagull, then the OMC rule should apply to Seagulls.

Replace the coil, this will make life a lot less complicated.

It is a shame that they are so expensive £50-£60, but when they start easily it is well worth it.

I do wonder how much of Seagulls perceived poor starting characteristics, are due to elderly Villiers coils, or Villiers coils in general.

H-A

[cajuncook1]

I have 1964 SJP 40 Plus.

Coil part number for Villiers 1 ignition:

M1634


Is that part number still good??

Are there after market or superseding part numbers for a replacement coil?


** Does a WIPAC coil Mark 2 replace the Villiers Mark 1 coil??

Thanks for any help.

[Stelios_Rjk]

MK1 coil is not interchangeable with MK2, but the whole magneto is. You have to change everything, base plate, ignition, points, flywheel.

M1364 is correct part number. You could use the replacement M1361 but is tricky, have a look what I did viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4172&start=30