Recently bought my first seagull, a 102 serial "ACL"
Starts fine but only produces steam from the water outlet, followed advice from this site & back-flushed up the water outlet but
the water came out the exhaust pipe.
Read all the cooling topics on the site & am i right in thinking it could be a loose/unscrewed water up pipe inside the exhaust?
If it is, how diffficult a job is it bearing in mind i'm new to the seagull world.
cheers.
Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Welcome!
Remove the powerhead and check the water pipe is connected properly. To do this undo the 2 nuts that secure the vertical leg to the crankcase. You can then pull off the top end of the engine with the exhaust attached. Then lay the removed powerhead assembly on a flat surface and loosen the exhaust clamp, and slide it down, the exhaust should then pull off, with a bit off wriggling etc. You can then see if the water pipe is secured correctly.
Drain most/all of the fuel first, and be careful not to bash the carb!
Post some pictures, we like those here
Remove the powerhead and check the water pipe is connected properly. To do this undo the 2 nuts that secure the vertical leg to the crankcase. You can then pull off the top end of the engine with the exhaust attached. Then lay the removed powerhead assembly on a flat surface and loosen the exhaust clamp, and slide it down, the exhaust should then pull off, with a bit off wriggling etc. You can then see if the water pipe is secured correctly.
Drain most/all of the fuel first, and be careful not to bash the carb!
Post some pictures, we like those here
-
Charles uk
- Posts: 4972
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Don't bother stripping yet.
Back flushing on a 102 should be done by disconnecting the water return pipe from the tell tail block where it's connected to the exhaust tube & injecting water into the end of this pipe, before flushing disconnect the water feed pipe at the plastic pipe connector on the water pump housing (hot water often helps) at this point the water feed tube can be wiggled about to see if it is firmly fixed to the the cylinder base.
Now flush, the reverse water flow will now be quite obvious, but please bear in mind that tap pressure is way higher than normal Seagull water pump pressure, so a reasonable flow at tap pressure might not give any indication of what the flow will be under normal pump conditions.
A 2 foot head over the cylinder height might be a better indicator, if the motor previously lived in a saltwater area with little chance of freshwater use, there is a good chance that your problems are caused by salt water corrosion build up in the water jacket.
Good luck.
Back flushing on a 102 should be done by disconnecting the water return pipe from the tell tail block where it's connected to the exhaust tube & injecting water into the end of this pipe, before flushing disconnect the water feed pipe at the plastic pipe connector on the water pump housing (hot water often helps) at this point the water feed tube can be wiggled about to see if it is firmly fixed to the the cylinder base.
Now flush, the reverse water flow will now be quite obvious, but please bear in mind that tap pressure is way higher than normal Seagull water pump pressure, so a reasonable flow at tap pressure might not give any indication of what the flow will be under normal pump conditions.
A 2 foot head over the cylinder height might be a better indicator, if the motor previously lived in a saltwater area with little chance of freshwater use, there is a good chance that your problems are caused by salt water corrosion build up in the water jacket.
Good luck.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Cheers guys, obviously going to try the non-strip down advice first.
At the bottom of the exhaust where the water pipe is visible, are you saying that it can be disconnected to wiggle & see if it's attached at the top?
Is there a technique to loosening this visible section of pipe?
another related question...when i squirt water up the water-out pipe, if its not a loose water-up pipe, how is the water getting
free to come down the inside of exhaust, is there a water outlet in there somewhere spraying to cool the exhaust down from inside?
had the engine running in a wheelie bin yesterday & a little water for a time was included in the gasses that were coming out of the water-out pipe,
not convinced that it's only steam, could include exhaust gases too as it felt hot within seconds of the engine starting, whatever does come out the pipe is at quite a pressure,
i've seen vids on youtube & the water outflow on other seagulls looks gentle & calm, what comes out my seagull is forced & rapid, like a wallpaper steamer.
Is there anywhere on the internet that shows photos of stripped down seagulls?
theres plenty of advice like this site but not many visuals apart from museum spec examples.
will post some of my own soon.
At the bottom of the exhaust where the water pipe is visible, are you saying that it can be disconnected to wiggle & see if it's attached at the top?
Is there a technique to loosening this visible section of pipe?
another related question...when i squirt water up the water-out pipe, if its not a loose water-up pipe, how is the water getting
free to come down the inside of exhaust, is there a water outlet in there somewhere spraying to cool the exhaust down from inside?
had the engine running in a wheelie bin yesterday & a little water for a time was included in the gasses that were coming out of the water-out pipe,
not convinced that it's only steam, could include exhaust gases too as it felt hot within seconds of the engine starting, whatever does come out the pipe is at quite a pressure,
i've seen vids on youtube & the water outflow on other seagulls looks gentle & calm, what comes out my seagull is forced & rapid, like a wallpaper steamer.
Is there anywhere on the internet that shows photos of stripped down seagulls?
theres plenty of advice like this site but not many visuals apart from museum spec examples.
will post some of my own soon.
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Here are a few pics, showing a removed 102 powerhead with water pipe still attached, a fully stripped down cylinder and what happens when the corrosion finally takes hold..
All seagull cylinders corrode from within to some degree, it slowly bubbles up inside the water jacket, blocking the water flow and eventually causing cracking, however as Charles mentions if used in salt water and not flushed after use, corrosion is accelerated
Poor water flow can also be caused by loose flakes of corroded water jacket finding their way to the bottom of the water jacket and blocking the inlet.
I've restored several cylinders to good water flow by using central heating descaler. Add it, seal inlet and outlet and leave for a while, and usually a load of crud comes out! Repeated a few time with a water flush between can fix it if the corrosion is not too bad.
I have my dads mid 1970s 40 plus on the bench at the moment, and it looks like that one has been caught just in time!
Try the reverse flush first and take it from there, but I suspect you will need to do a bit more to restore some cooling flow. When running the cylinder should only be warmish to touch. My SD seagull that has excellent cooling flow does not get very warm at all.
It's all good fun though
All seagull cylinders corrode from within to some degree, it slowly bubbles up inside the water jacket, blocking the water flow and eventually causing cracking, however as Charles mentions if used in salt water and not flushed after use, corrosion is accelerated
Poor water flow can also be caused by loose flakes of corroded water jacket finding their way to the bottom of the water jacket and blocking the inlet.I've restored several cylinders to good water flow by using central heating descaler. Add it, seal inlet and outlet and leave for a while, and usually a load of crud comes out! Repeated a few time with a water flush between can fix it if the corrosion is not too bad.
I have my dads mid 1970s 40 plus on the bench at the moment, and it looks like that one has been caught just in time!
Try the reverse flush first and take it from there, but I suspect you will need to do a bit more to restore some cooling flow. When running the cylinder should only be warmish to touch. My SD seagull that has excellent cooling flow does not get very warm at all.
It's all good fun though
- Attachments
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- Totally knackered! Corroded from within.
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- Stripped down long water jacket 102 cylinder
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- Seperated powerhead with water pipe
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
cheers again,
thanks for the images
but check this...
Put the seagull in my wheelie bin today, didn't touch anything, didn't change anything,
same water hight as previously, same petrol mix, after taking the choke off set the throttle to about a 3rd open & the water pipe just had gasses coming out again.
went inside for a few minutes & then i heard the engine throttle up, quickly went outside as i have neighbours that complain about the noise all the time.
found a steady stream of water coming out of the pipe, not full flow but about 2/3rds.
let it tick over for a while longer...no steam or gasses just beautiful luke warm water, can now touch the exhaust & head when running it's that cooler.
there is a british seagull god.
still going to backflush at some point, got kettle de-scaler somewhere so will try that too, would it be best to remove the water pipe at the rubber bit near prop & turn the engine on it's head & bung the water outlet pipe & put the de-scaler in from the lower exhaust end.
pictures to follow at some point.
thanks for the images
but check this...
Put the seagull in my wheelie bin today, didn't touch anything, didn't change anything,
same water hight as previously, same petrol mix, after taking the choke off set the throttle to about a 3rd open & the water pipe just had gasses coming out again.
went inside for a few minutes & then i heard the engine throttle up, quickly went outside as i have neighbours that complain about the noise all the time.
found a steady stream of water coming out of the pipe, not full flow but about 2/3rds.
let it tick over for a while longer...no steam or gasses just beautiful luke warm water, can now touch the exhaust & head when running it's that cooler.
there is a british seagull god.
still going to backflush at some point, got kettle de-scaler somewhere so will try that too, would it be best to remove the water pipe at the rubber bit near prop & turn the engine on it's head & bung the water outlet pipe & put the de-scaler in from the lower exhaust end.
pictures to follow at some point.
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
If the engine is running./cooling as well as it appears to be, just enjoy!
A backflush might be helpful at some point - 102's sometimes suffer from rust flakes from the water jacket blocking the small bore outlet union in th top of the cylinder, which is simple to check.
Going back to your original question, the 102 is unique amongst Seagulls, at least until the very late ones, in that discharged water is shared out at the union on the side of the exhaust tube, so that a 'telltale' flwo of water can be seen exiting to fresh air, with the remainder of the discharge flow being directed into the exhaust to quieten the engine, which accounts for why you were seeing water exiting the exhaust tube.
Elsewhere on the site you will read that cooling flow isn't great in wheelie bin tests and gives a false picture - either take the prop off, or disengage the prop drive if your motor has this facility
A backflush might be helpful at some point - 102's sometimes suffer from rust flakes from the water jacket blocking the small bore outlet union in th top of the cylinder, which is simple to check.
Going back to your original question, the 102 is unique amongst Seagulls, at least until the very late ones, in that discharged water is shared out at the union on the side of the exhaust tube, so that a 'telltale' flwo of water can be seen exiting to fresh air, with the remainder of the discharge flow being directed into the exhaust to quieten the engine, which accounts for why you were seeing water exiting the exhaust tube.
Elsewhere on the site you will read that cooling flow isn't great in wheelie bin tests and gives a false picture - either take the prop off, or disengage the prop drive if your motor has this facility
Re: Backflushing water comes out exhaust
Had a chance to descale the water jacket,
took the external water pipe off from the head & fitted it in reverse while standing the engine on it's head, acted like a mini snorkel,
poured the descaler down & topped up with water & left overnight, the liquid came out a purple colour.
Not had a chance to see if it's improved the flow yet,
just happy theres flow at all.
took the external water pipe off from the head & fitted it in reverse while standing the engine on it's head, acted like a mini snorkel,
poured the descaler down & topped up with water & left overnight, the liquid came out a purple colour.
Not had a chance to see if it's improved the flow yet,
just happy theres flow at all.