FV for sale.
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:57 am
Yep, i spotted that one too.
It's quite a long way away mind you. (Glasgow)
Jon
Saving Old Seagulls
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FV for sale.
https://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=5803
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Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:32 pm
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:43 pm
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:58 pm
"Bitsa" if ever i saw one.
Been hacked about a bit too.And definitely NOT as old as the seller thinks.
I've seen quite a few like this in recent years (and not just 102's either) painted olive drab with an obvious union jack sticker on the tank!
Strangely enough, i'm waiting on a reply to my message sent about this.
Jon
Been hacked about a bit too.And definitely NOT as old as the seller thinks.
I've seen quite a few like this in recent years (and not just 102's either) painted olive drab with an obvious union jack sticker on the tank!
Strangely enough, i'm waiting on a reply to my message sent about this.
Jon
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:00 pm
I did spot that one, the problem is, its more likely to be something like a TC, nothing that old about it and the chopped exhaust isn't doing it any favours.
I have already told him its a bitsa, but they still try sell them as ex-wartime.
I have already told him its a bitsa, but they still try sell them as ex-wartime.
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:15 pm
Slotted core plug in the cylinder (hidden underneath all that horrid green paint) would make it something like an AD or AC (and possibly a later model too as there's no part number cast into the block either)
Hacked about in the pumphousing (to allow the swept back prop to be used)
Oil nipples on the "wrong side" compared to most of the other 102 gearboxes of the time (still trying to get my head around these)
40 series transom bracket
Later 46n carb with corresponding inlet cowl and choke shutter
Texted flywheel cover with a strange looking flywheel nut! (normally these have a plain cover with no writing if this is what i think it is)
Clutch rod fitted the wrong way around, exhaust clamp in the wrong position
Unusual tiller grip
Cant see the throttle cable attached to anything?
The exhaust tube lower end looks to be "modified" (probably holding everything together so it doesn't drop off at warp factor 9)
Have i missed anything!
Yep, it's a bitsa. 1950's powerhead grafted onto an earlier gearbox. Pumphousing must have been an after thought by a previous owner.
And THAT PAINT.... good grief (i've seen 40's "refurbished" in a similar fashion possibly by the same seller with his/her trademark union jack sticker)
With any luck i might get a reply back to my message
On the bright side though it looks ok for salvaging a few bits from it.
Jon
Hacked about in the pumphousing (to allow the swept back prop to be used)
Oil nipples on the "wrong side" compared to most of the other 102 gearboxes of the time (still trying to get my head around these)
40 series transom bracket
Later 46n carb with corresponding inlet cowl and choke shutter
Texted flywheel cover with a strange looking flywheel nut! (normally these have a plain cover with no writing if this is what i think it is)
Clutch rod fitted the wrong way around, exhaust clamp in the wrong position
Unusual tiller grip
Cant see the throttle cable attached to anything?
The exhaust tube lower end looks to be "modified" (probably holding everything together so it doesn't drop off at warp factor 9)
Have i missed anything!
Yep, it's a bitsa. 1950's powerhead grafted onto an earlier gearbox. Pumphousing must have been an after thought by a previous owner.
And THAT PAINT....
good grief (i've seen 40's "refurbished" in a similar fashion possibly by the same seller with his/her trademark union jack sticker)With any luck i might get a reply back to my message
On the bright side though it looks ok for salvaging a few bits from it.
Jon
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:22 am
Well, at least the seller states, possibly ex-army...
'For the World' flywheel plate is 1953 onwards; it makes sense for the actual powerhead to be around that era...
Castings on the block say anything to you Jon?
Gearbox is correct to that motor, if you look closely you can see that someone has cut off the protruding exhaust sub-ejector bit, so nothing has been grafted. Prop is definitely wrong.
The only thing/s that I can see that aren't right is the prop, transom bracket (did anyone notice the home-made thumbscrew mods
), tiller handle, carb bowl positioning, wrong inlet shroud, fuel line and paint job.
It has been cared for somewhat recently, a new style HT lead connection to the coil says that...
And for all we know, the Army quite possibly could have used this motor; he doesn't state WW2 era, and the Army was certainly still around in the 50's...
Only a bitsa in that the prop and transom bracket is wrong.
I would comfortably say that it is definitely a 1953 onwards AC, which after the horrible paint has been removed then would be a decent motor.
I'd certainly go for it if it was closer.
Cheers
BP
'For the World' flywheel plate is 1953 onwards; it makes sense for the actual powerhead to be around that era...
Castings on the block say anything to you Jon?
Gearbox is correct to that motor, if you look closely you can see that someone has cut off the protruding exhaust sub-ejector bit, so nothing has been grafted. Prop is definitely wrong.
The only thing/s that I can see that aren't right is the prop, transom bracket (did anyone notice the home-made thumbscrew mods
), tiller handle, carb bowl positioning, wrong inlet shroud, fuel line and paint job.It has been cared for somewhat recently, a new style HT lead connection to the coil says that...
And for all we know, the Army quite possibly could have used this motor; he doesn't state WW2 era, and the Army was certainly still around in the 50's...
Only a bitsa in that the prop and transom bracket is wrong.
I would comfortably say that it is definitely a 1953 onwards AC, which after the horrible paint has been removed then would be a decent motor.
I'd certainly go for it if it was closer.
Cheers
BP
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:44 pm
Seems you're starting to get into these now Boyd 
Lets start with block castings.
The numbers E1299A that appear on quite a large number of cylinders with EITHER hex-head or slotted coreplugs are just a part number.
Going by my data on these so far (and please dont think that is "the bible" in any way shape or form) BUT from 1950 onwards the vast majority of 102's cylinders dont seem to have these cast onto the cylinder. Before 50 a lot of them do.
So we can agree that the powerhead at least dates from post 1950. Any other numbers that may or may not be there i have an idea they might be a batch number from a particular mold. Once the mold gets dinged and bashed beyond any further use, another mold is made and (possibly) the numbers/letters might get changed too. Another way of identifying who made it and when from a quality control point of view.There must have been quite a few molds in use all at once to produce the units required to meet the orders. So, no the numbers dont really tell me much for now!
Pumphousings.
As you're aware, around 1950 saw the introduction of the "sub ejector" pumphousing which this particular 102 has had it's outlet unceremoniously hacked off to allow the earlier swept back prop to be used. So, going by the pics this ties in with what we know already.
Gearboxes.
Oil nipples in these 102 boxes appear to be from most of the PRE 1950 motors. With the introduction of the sub ejector saw the discontinuation of oil nipples from the original 2 nipples to 1 then finally NONE at all. (this 102 has 2 nipples which would put it at pre 1950, so more than likely a gearbox swap at some point in time by a previous owner)
The correct prop for a 102 of this age is normally (but not always) a "bowtie" and NOT a swept back SD type, so something not quite right here.
"In the world" covers came before "For the world" covers, and as for a date i think it's a little bit later than 53 (nearer 56 i think)
The carb is definitely from a later stock, as is the fuel line. (bowl position will depend on the type of boat this motor is used on) Some owners prefer bowls closest the cylinder with less chance of fouling anything when steering HARD to starboard.
Choke shutters on that particular type of shroud dont normally appear till well into the 60's when the Wipac ignition takes over from the Villiers.
So another swap at some point in time. (seagull patent normally for this time period with no choke)
Transom bracket we know is from a 40 series motor.
Anything made during WW2 would have had a short waterjacket cylinder, (42-46 dont forget) this one has a long waterjacket (and before you ask, NO the short waterjacket cylinder WILL NOT fit onto a later crankcase and vice versa) I've tried, it just doesn't fit anything like close enough as the stud hole centres are completely different. So very definitely 100% after WW2 with this one i'm afraid. The armed forces these days tend to use an outboard with some guts to it (evinrude,yamaha,suzuki,mercury etc.) and probably quite a bit bigger than an old seagull, but you never can tell. Back in the 50's things might have been very different.There might be a distinct possibility that this 102 might have been owned by the armed forces, but i doubt it somehow.
The green paint is absolutely dreadful i have to say, but not that uncommon over here in blighty. I have seen quite a few seagulls (40's centuries and 102's) painted in this exact same colour scheme with a trade mark union jack sticker on the tank. (more than likely from an ebay seller trying to make a quick buck on the side)
All things aside, a huge amount of 102's that we see today will have had some remedial work done to them in order to keep them going. This it seems is commonplace. Dont get me wrong, they are tough 'ol birds, but eventually something will break or fall off, and you have to decide on how "authentic" you want to keep things. This 102 falls into that category.
I'm just fussy, i like my 102's to be as close as possible as when they left the factory all those years ago. Not always possible i know, but that's half the challenge with a seagull. The other half is keeping it going reliably.
So, yeah.
It's a bitsa in the kindest possible way of putting it, but i am a hard task master after all.
(but still worth a bid or two for the spare parts alone, or if you're brave enough bring it back to how it should be)
Enough of my ramblings
Jon
Lets start with block castings.
The numbers E1299A that appear on quite a large number of cylinders with EITHER hex-head or slotted coreplugs are just a part number.
Going by my data on these so far (and please dont think that is "the bible" in any way shape or form) BUT from 1950 onwards the vast majority of 102's cylinders dont seem to have these cast onto the cylinder. Before 50 a lot of them do.
So we can agree that the powerhead at least dates from post 1950. Any other numbers that may or may not be there i have an idea they might be a batch number from a particular mold. Once the mold gets dinged and bashed beyond any further use, another mold is made and (possibly) the numbers/letters might get changed too. Another way of identifying who made it and when from a quality control point of view.There must have been quite a few molds in use all at once to produce the units required to meet the orders. So, no the numbers dont really tell me much for now!
Pumphousings.
As you're aware, around 1950 saw the introduction of the "sub ejector" pumphousing which this particular 102 has had it's outlet unceremoniously hacked off to allow the earlier swept back prop to be used. So, going by the pics this ties in with what we know already.
Gearboxes.
Oil nipples in these 102 boxes appear to be from most of the PRE 1950 motors. With the introduction of the sub ejector saw the discontinuation of oil nipples from the original 2 nipples to 1 then finally NONE at all. (this 102 has 2 nipples which would put it at pre 1950, so more than likely a gearbox swap at some point in time by a previous owner)
The correct prop for a 102 of this age is normally (but not always) a "bowtie" and NOT a swept back SD type, so something not quite right here.
"In the world" covers came before "For the world" covers, and as for a date i think it's a little bit later than 53 (nearer 56 i think)
The carb is definitely from a later stock, as is the fuel line. (bowl position will depend on the type of boat this motor is used on) Some owners prefer bowls closest the cylinder with less chance of fouling anything when steering HARD to starboard.
Choke shutters on that particular type of shroud dont normally appear till well into the 60's when the Wipac ignition takes over from the Villiers.
So another swap at some point in time. (seagull patent normally for this time period with no choke)
Transom bracket we know is from a 40 series motor.
Anything made during WW2 would have had a short waterjacket cylinder, (42-46 dont forget) this one has a long waterjacket (and before you ask, NO the short waterjacket cylinder WILL NOT fit onto a later crankcase and vice versa) I've tried, it just doesn't fit anything like close enough as the stud hole centres are completely different. So very definitely 100% after WW2 with this one i'm afraid. The armed forces these days tend to use an outboard with some guts to it (evinrude,yamaha,suzuki,mercury etc.) and probably quite a bit bigger than an old seagull, but you never can tell. Back in the 50's things might have been very different.There might be a distinct possibility that this 102 might have been owned by the armed forces, but i doubt it somehow.
The green paint is absolutely dreadful i have to say, but not that uncommon over here in blighty. I have seen quite a few seagulls (40's centuries and 102's) painted in this exact same colour scheme with a trade mark union jack sticker on the tank. (more than likely from an ebay seller trying to make a quick buck on the side)
All things aside, a huge amount of 102's that we see today will have had some remedial work done to them in order to keep them going. This it seems is commonplace. Dont get me wrong, they are tough 'ol birds, but eventually something will break or fall off, and you have to decide on how "authentic" you want to keep things. This 102 falls into that category.
I'm just fussy, i like my 102's to be as close as possible as when they left the factory all those years ago. Not always possible i know, but that's half the challenge with a seagull. The other half is keeping it going reliably.
So, yeah.
It's a bitsa in the kindest possible way of putting it, but i am a hard task master after all.
(but still worth a bid or two for the spare parts alone, or if you're brave enough bring it back to how it should be)
Enough of my ramblings
Jon
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:14 pm
The gearbox with the nipples on the starboard side is early SD from what I gather, similar to the ON/OP gearbox casings so the prop is probably the correct type for that gearbox. From the pump housing up, its later.
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:00 am
These cylinders were sandcast, which means the only "moulds" used in the castings of these were the core boxes, of which there were probably 5, the bore, transfer port, inlet port, exhaust port & last but not least, the water jacket.
The number E1299A is what's commonly known as the pattern number, a painted wooden Seagull cylinder shaped item with external lumps & bumps, which is only used for the external shape & for location points of any cores that come right through the externals of the finished cylinder, water jacket, exhaust port, inlet port & bore, there might also be one for the spark plug hole.
It might be better if Nudge explained how he envisages this casting was done as he has way more experience than I, of how this complicated process was undertaken!
The number E1299A is what's commonly known as the pattern number, a painted wooden Seagull cylinder shaped item with external lumps & bumps, which is only used for the external shape & for location points of any cores that come right through the externals of the finished cylinder, water jacket, exhaust port, inlet port & bore, there might also be one for the spark plug hole.
It might be better if Nudge explained how he envisages this casting was done as he has way more experience than I, of how this complicated process was undertaken!
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:00 am
These cylinders were sandcast, which means the only "moulds" used in the castings of these were the core boxes, of which there were probably 5, the bore, transfer port, inlet port, exhaust port & last but not least, the water jacket.
The number E1299A is what's commonly known as the pattern number, a painted wooden Seagull cylinder shaped item with external lumps & bumps, which is only used for the external shape & for location points of any cores that come right through the externals of the finished cylinder, water jacket, exhaust port, inlet port & bore, there might also be one for the spark plug hole.
It might be better if Nudge explained how he envisages this casting was done as he has way more experience than I, of how this complicated process was undertaken!
The number E1299A is what's commonly known as the pattern number, a painted wooden Seagull cylinder shaped item with external lumps & bumps, which is only used for the external shape & for location points of any cores that come right through the externals of the finished cylinder, water jacket, exhaust port, inlet port & bore, there might also be one for the spark plug hole.
It might be better if Nudge explained how he envisages this casting was done as he has way more experience than I, of how this complicated process was undertaken!
Re: FV for sale.
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:49 pm
I concur Rene.
The gearbox/prop is from something quite a bit older than the rest of the motor. Make do and mend from long ago.
Interesting you think oil nipples on the "wrong" side being early SD.
I have my suspicions about these also, but as i don't have any juicy data yet (HINT HINT ahem) that would give me something to go on, i have to sit on my hands on this one.
Jon
The gearbox/prop is from something quite a bit older than the rest of the motor. Make do and mend from long ago.
Interesting you think oil nipples on the "wrong" side being early SD.
I have my suspicions about these also, but as i don't have any juicy data yet (HINT HINT ahem) that would give me something to go on, i have to sit on my hands on this one.
Jon