Saving Old Seagulls

Hi,

I recently had the good fortune to pick up a forty plus and a forty minus for very little. The forty minus is now good as new thanks to the addition of a missing thrust washer and putting the gearbox cover back on the right way up, having removed the grease, before replacing with 140. The forty plus on the other hand is not a forty plus, but a Little Forty series LS12167 from 1953/4.

The good bits:
Mostly there...

Bad bits:
-Power head goes round, but the gearbox doesn't, with a friendly grinding sound coming from the water pump region...
-Can't tell what the carb is. It is gold and has a weird air intake which looks kind of like an elephants trunk which points downwards. The trunk can be swung forward or back (choke?)
-plastic hook for holding engine in rest position missing
-seized metal gearbox plug

So questions:

What could be broke in drive shaft/water pump region and can it be replaced?
what carb do i have?
how do you remove the gearbox (there's no collar clamp like on the forty plus, drive shaft cover goes straight in to gearbox)?
Is it all worth it or is someone after some spares and can save me the trouble?

Cheers!
Rich on the Costa-del-Plym

First off do you need to remove the drive tube from the gearbox.
Unscrew the two screws that hold the water pump housing to the gearbox and take the gearbox off that way.
Unbolt the clamp around the base of the engine at the top of the tube and the drive tube will knock out, the drive tube is threaded at the bottom, little if no chance of removing without damage, the carb is a Villiers.

Cheers Keith,

Ahh a threaded drive shaft cover would make sense. I'm guessing it will be in the dictionary under seized though!

Are you sure about the villiers carb? it is totally different to the villiers carb on my other forty plus's and I can't find a picture of anything similar. The carb body seems to be composed of 2 parallel vertical tubes (one housing needle, the other the float chamber?).

I think i will have to drill out at least the one bolt on top of the gearbox.

Anyone know if drive shafts are available? I seem to remember hearing that several parts for these are different to a forty plus and no longer made...

Any help much appreciated!

rich

Couple of pictures would be very useful.

H-A

I think your talking about another type of Villiers carb, that I don't belive was ever fitted to British Seagulls, have a search for a thread with JLO in it on this forum, was it this type of carb, if yes then it's someones get you out of the poo fix.

Everything can be repaired, for any spares contact John who runs this site, top service and very reasonable.

Andy

Charles uk wrote:I think your talking about another type of Villiers carb, that I don't belive was ever fitted to British Seagulls, have a search for a thread with JLO in it on this forum, was it this type of carb, if yes then it's someones get you out of the poo fix.

Hi Charles,

The obscure-carb-knowledge prize goes to you indeed! This is it on the JLO

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/fo ... jlo#p15301

The throttle lever on mine is a sharp rusted little blemish on the lovely brass tiller. No arm left on it. May have a look at my mums old mountain bike to see if a brake or gear lever can be "borrowed"....

Maybe tomorow i will separate the gearbox from the power head and see what's broke. Given that the gearbox itself was drier than my career prospects (thanks recession!) i hold little hope of finding anything of beauty....

Cheers thus far,

Rich

I'd guess a rusted out drive shaft, failing that, a gearbox that hasn't seen lube for a long while.

The carb you have is an Amal (quite a nice carb actually) which was fitted to all sorts of things - probably JLO engines but certainly Sea Bees etc. The Villiers carb you need should be easy to get hold of - to be correct yours should have a metal float bowl and brass float (they all did until the later ones) if it worries you.
To complete the set you should also have one of the earlier style of Amal throttle levers - quite a compact body compared to later levers, and lever which is slightly longer with only a small ball end.

Bottom end - separate the gear end with the two screws as others have suggested to see the state of the impellor etc. You would more than likely wreck the upper casting in trying to separate it from the tube, which doesn't affect anything mechanical anyway.

These gearboxes hold very little oil at the best of times, so the gears might be in a bad state. have a look at the gears - if they are rusty that's not necessarily too bad, but if the teeth are pitted - that is bad!

Seized drain plug - you might be able to get a pair of water pump pliers to grip it - ceratinly works on the later plastic ones which have parallel sides, but may be difficult on the metal plugs which tend to have a radius.

John may be able to help with a driveshaft if you need one, a latch (think yours should be aluminium as opposed to plastic), a carb, maybe a throttle lever etc.
Obsolete parts you mention are I think pistons and cranks which are different to later engines, and I believe there are no cylinder gaskets and spacer plates, so don't the the power head apart without good reason.

The driveshaft on an LS was a thinner, more fragile thing compared to the normal driveshaft. The rusting and fracture that yours has probably suffered was a bit too common for B.S., that's why they changed it for na beefier one. The later one will fit, but you'll need a new impeller to go with it.

Do I loose the prize, for getting the manufacturer of the carb completely wrong.

Thanks Rick

Thanks, Rick and Charles,

I'll message John as soon as i have checked out the drive shaft with a list of part requirements. I'm happy to keep the Amal carb as long as it works. Just noticed also that this is indeed the "Best outboard IN the world" having said which the guy who sold it to me said he didn't want it as he "already had an anchor".....

Cheers,

Rich

Rich - should have said that if you are going to get the gearbox endcap off to check the gears, get the cap hot before you try to undo the filler plug to save brutalising it - aluminium expands much more than brass, and should make the task easy.
A Seagull spanner has a flat on it intended to act as a key to undo the plug, but a pair of those cheapo Verniers is usually the right gauge of steel to serve as a key and avoid chewing up the slot.
The 'in the world' plate is correct on your motor - think it was the last year they did it before changing to 'for' - legend has it that the Yanks disputed the claim 'in' and so it got changed.
If you want things right, I believe your tank filler cap should be aluminium with two ears as opposed to the plastic type.
Nice little engines - worth a bit of TLC.

I noticed this throttle lever earlier whilst hunting for the SD lever I'm after. just the one you need I think:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/british-seagull-s ... 230d8029c3

Damn! That would've been perfect! Not only was i too slow off the mark to bid, but i don't actually have any money at all at the moment. I shall have to get trading...