Saving Old Seagulls

Hello, great site and forum!

Just aquired a seagull as part of a dingy, until then hadn't seen or heard of one.
It's a FP older running on 10:1, number 3 needle villiers carb.

It looked fairly in good order so I bit the bullet and tried to start it, on the 10th or 11th pull it roared into life and stopped dead - a quick check and some more hours reading on the website and reset points (they were actually shut all the time!), re gapped/cleaned plug and decided to try again, it started on the 3rd pull (I am testing in a wheelie bin of water, filled just above exhaust). I then noticed that the throttle cable didn't actually do much as the needle and plunger were stuck and fuel/oil spilled out of the hole in the bowl, it raced a bit then cut out. Ok, back to the website, more reading, decided to strip and clean carb, which was done using carb cleaner. Found the float needle was stuck, as was the float with nice brown goo. Put it all back together and tried it out, started on 3rd pull and ran fairly good, quite a lot of smoke, but responded to throttle! It's at this point that I noticed the head gasket leaking, oil dripping out of it. So after some umming and arring decied to take the head off and reseal gasket. I had read the words "Do not remove" and the stories on the site, but I had the bug now so went for it. It did strike me as odd having slotted bolts on the head would be fun if they were stuck but I laid the seagull down (after removing tank and carb) and filled the screw heads up with CRC 55 (its a bit like WD40) left them for a few hours. Returned and tried a screw, with little effort it undone a bit, so more CRC and moved onto the next ine, again, it came undone a bit so more CRC and onto the next, at this point I was thinking that I must be lucky!, the third one again came undone easily, more crc and then I came to the fourth one (located nearest the water outlet) no matter what it would not budge, by this time I had removed completley tthe other three. So gave it some heat and more CRC, tried again, this time it budged, or at least the slotted head didsheared off, unfortunately it took part of the head with it, now my point/question is, is the head ruined or can i use it with the bit broken off?

sorry picture is blurred! but hopefully you can see my problem?

Can't really make out any detail from your photo, any chance you could have another go?

I'm sure someone on here will have a source for a replacement head for you, shouldn't be expensive. Naturally (although there are those that would argue) a new gasket would be a good idea, too. A replacement bolt/screw won't be too hard to find.

Hi,

have changed picture hopefully better?

Unfortunately I think you missed the link for the second pic. No matter, I think we can see the problem you have. The head is still perfectly fine to use with the up-stand around the screw head partially or wholly missing.

The greater problem I think might be the remains of the sheared screw still in the cylinder block, or was there enough length still remaining to get a grip on it and screw it out?

What is puzzling me is that it has the slotted head screws rather than hex head machine screws. I had thought that everything was hex head by the start of FP ( i.e. 1967). Maybe the marriage of a later crankcase to an earlier block & head?

Peter

No second pic, just changed the original.........

yup theres a nice stub out of the block, fortunately it lines up with a stud on the back which screwed out so after cleaning out the crud that was round the bottom of the water jacket a over that bolt, more CRC5-56 leaving on over night to soak in..........fingers crossed!

I can't give you an engine number as someone at somepoint in history replaced it with a nice row of XXXXXXX - stamped over. I am guessing at the exact model just from pictures on website and the prop has 40 plus on it..............it might just be a collection of different models....who knows!

Hmm. As Charles says you will certainly find a replacement head and very much easier than a block.

Soaking in holy dismantling fluid is always a good move and if you can get the fluid on to the bottom of the head screw all the better. That's where there is most thread corrosion. Personally I find that more heat than you think is needed is definitely needed! I usually do head removal on the outside bench with my largest torch. For removing sheared studs the block is usually easily hot enough to smoulder the old shirt or whatever I pick it up with as I up end it and crush the remaining stud in the vice jaws. I wouldn't try that in the workshop never mind the house utility room ......

You will probably be thinking of using a thread tap to clean up the block threads. I also like to put the bolts through a die as well.

Looking back over my older parts lists I suspect you may have an SJP Forty Plus (FVP and LS Super Forty Plus have head nuts I think ) although it is not clear when the changeover happened to hex head. I think that is probably a question for CharlesP. Interesting question since I hadn't spotted before that my 1959 orange cover "Simplicity Itself" part list only shows Type 40 Powerhead 64 cc with head screws! ( Part # 1378). Sorry; very anorak.

Good luck and I hope it doesn't become a drill out or EDM job!

Peter

I suspect SJP is about right. You're quite correct about the F,VF,FV,FVP,LS and LM having proper hex nuts, but I would need to go down to the workshop to look at others to see what's there - it's something I simply haven't bothered about before now.

Going down to the workshop this afternoon is looking unattractive, here at the home of current primary woman I have her daughter bringing me cups of tea, I'm warm, and I've just eaten a Cadbury's Flake for the first time in ages.

When I move both females into my gaff things'll be easier - firstly I'll be closer to the flock, and of course with two women in the house the workshop may well be the only place I'm allowed.

Is it all worth it I ask myself?

Charles... From one bachelor to another:

DON'T DO IT.

Besides, your secondaries will feel miffed.

Hugo

Too late, mate.

She's got a key, and what's more she's made friends with the cat.

I'm doomed...

Plan two,

Move your segulls throughout the house and start on up out of water at 3am in the morning. Tell her it helps you to get to sleep.

Doomed, like hell.... if there is breath in your body there is hope.... might have to sacrifice the cat tho. Bad cat!

for Gods sake man ...quick, change the locks !!!

get her a stuffed cat ....

next thing you'll be getting home to find that the nice man from the scrappies kindly accepted £ 50-00 to helpfully remove your 50 'gulls to melt down for the needy in Africa

not a moment to lose old boy !!!!

might have to sacrifice the cat tho. Bad cat

Poor Harry, he's never been lucky. He is overendowed with long fur, and underendowed with brains. He only 'sort of' gets this 'being a cat' thing.

When his sister learned to climb trees he tried it too, and he grasped the 'going up' part quite well. The 'going down' had him completely flummoxed until he evolved a system previously unknown in the cat world.

To the complete astonishment of my neighbours he would descend in a sort of semi-controlled plummet from the top branch, taking care to bleed off excess velocity by colliding with as many branches as possible on the way.

When a few branches were lopped his arrester gear failed, so to speak, and he panicked, which is a bad thing. It was a bad thing for him because his tail involuntarily turned into a furry Christmas Tree (as it does if he is alarmed), and this altered his aerodynamic properties, turning him into a sort of fluffy shuttlecock. He hit the ground chin first, having never mastered all that stuff about landing on his feet.

Big vet's bills, and a cat who is not keen on trees.

His life may take another downturn soon. Mary is keen on dogs.

Just a bit of an update and a question....

head and block are all nice and clean water channels were pretty bad, from the looks of it someone has had it apart before if only a little bit and put some gasket sealant/instant gasket on one side, probably to try and stop the leaks? This stuff was pretty welded to the block so I bought some gasket stripper, which did a great job of stipping the paint as well (it need to come off anyway, it also did some good work at removing the brown/rusty sludge in the water jacket. It looks like the block was primed with a green paint then painted black - is this usual? Also the end which sits opposite to the head (base) was painted, should it be? How does a gasket seal into paint?

Inspection of the driveshaft revealed it is 3/4 blocked up with more brown gunk/sludge = guess that needs to be cleaned out? the impellor has worn away part of the gasket as the impellor was holding the draveshaft in place, I think I read a post about it's position, so will have to reposition it, can I turn the gasket (it's more like a PCB board!) over as I don't see it makes any difference??

New gaskets on way as well as a head bolt, so once the block is repainted reassembly can start, I'll post some pics when its done - thats if my wife doesn't get fed up being a seagull widow with me in the garage!

Sounds as though stripping this motor was a very good idea for more reasons than one.

There are a variety of primer colours through the years, I have certainly encountered green.

The mating surfaces should be clean iron, and the matching alloy surfaces should be clean too. Lots of people use their favourite sealant on Seagulls, at both ends. The crankcase end should have a paper gasket, too. You can either make this or buy one, the postage shouldn't ncost a fortune.

Now is a good opportunity to clear out all the waterways in the block, try to get them as clean as possible.

Yes you can turn the gasket over, provided the cutout matches (Actually I don't think it does, but I'm not at home at the moment and can't check) If not either just leave it where it is a or get a new one.

Good luck