Villiers MK1 Condenser Inspection

[sierramuir]

Hi,

I am trying to inspect my condenser which may be in need of replacement or repair. I have taken off the flywheel and removed the three nuts underneith the points cylindrical points box. I throught the box would easily lift out but it is really stuck. Is there another screw or bolt that I am not aware about? Does anyonw out there know of a method to remove the cylindrical points box? Thank You.

[Swami]

Ah Ha Sierra! You may have struck what I struck this week with the same problem. Removing the nuts SHOULD release the points box to be removed upwards and outwards from its mounting plate. BUT .... on closer inspection, I found in mine, that the long screws which hold the box on (after taking off the small brass nuts), had in fact a small flange on them which disallowed removal of the box without taking those long screws out from below.

To do this, screw 2 nuts onto the protruding thread below the mounting plate. Tighten those two nuts against each other, and then with spanner on the lower nut, unscrew the whole long screw and two nuts from the points box. Repeat for the other one. There will be a sticky old gasget under the points box (or should be).

Now, when reassembling, I believe the flange on the screws should be ABOVE the plate and inside the bottom of the points box. First screw the long threaded screws into the box to a level BELOW its base. Then a new gasget goes on, THEN feed the mounting screws through the mounting plate with shakeproof washers and nuts from underneath.

I don't know why mine (and maybe yours) was assembled like that. Maybe the purists will tell me I've got it wrong!

Hope this helps.

[sierramuir]

Thank You for provding some excellent information. I was about to put a big wrench around it, thinking it would jar loose. You may have saved me from damaging my cylindrical box. I would have never figured this one out. Thank You again and have a Great Week!

[RickUK]

The studs holding the points box on only need the nuts taking off from the bottom - ie they are not tapped holes. They will have corroded in over the years, and just need gentle use of a punch to get them moving in the casting.
The flanges on the studs are just to mount the condensor in the points body.
Before remounting the points box, just run a suitably sized drill bit by hand, or a small round file through the mounting holes, and you will see a small amount of non-metallic dust fall out - this is steel/aluminium corrosion. The holes were a tight fit in the first place, for accurate location of the points unit. Do the same thing for the third hole for the post and clip thaht holds the brass cover in place.
Corrosion will take years to build up again, but put some copper grease or similar on the studs when reassembling. This is good practice on any of the bolts elsewhere on a Seagull that go into aluminium. Rick.

[Swami]

>>> Rick Wrote: The studs holding the points box on only need the nuts taking off from the bottom - ie they are not tapped holes. They will have corroded in over the years, and just need gentle use of a punch to get them moving in the casting. The flanges on the studs are just to mount the condensor in the points body.

Yes Rick, I would normally agree with you (and common mechanical sense) if my studs had not been mysteriously last inserted from underneath the plate, causing the little flanges to prohibit removal. Sometimes I wonder what sort of people put things in back-to front!

[charlesp]

You guys have had me running off to my little workshop to look at a magneto - and the rain is driving down hard here!

I have now been looking at this for a few minutes, and wonder if any of you can tell me the function of the gasket? Is it supposed to keep damp out of the condenser compartment? I cannot see that it is intended to insulate anything electrically.

The one I'm looking at has the sprung arm with the felt oil pad that was supposed to lubricate the flywheel cam - I have yet to find one of these that has not been bent back out of the way - I understand that British Seagull engineers viewed these as an evil, and got rid of them.

[sierramuir]

Thank you Swami, RickUK, and CharlesSP,

I do see some corrosion by the base but I did not see a flange. I did try to tap it out the other day but it seems to be frozen. Maybe a small squirt of WD40 might help before tapping the screws again. If that does not work, I will try backing out the screws. Thanks again you guys!

[RickUK]

Hello each - for sierramuir - normally you can't see the flange externally - Swami must have one assembled by a mechanical genius (!) Try to avoid undoing the studs from the outside, as there is a strong danger of damaging the threads. Put the nuts back on the studs until they are flush with the stud ends - this will protect the threads when you clobber them with a punch. Hit the studs equally and alternately, as the two are obviously parallel, and the box needs to come out in a reasonably straight line.
It all may seen solid at the moment - the corrosion forms a concrete-like bond, but as soon as you get it free, everything will become much easier. Follow the tips for clearing the holes as before.
Correct reassembly is to have the shorter threaded length on one side of the flange fixing the condensor to the points box, leaving the slightly longer length of thread to go through the magneto baseplate. ie. the little flange is holding the condensor in place, and should be flush with the base of the points box, then leaving just a threaded part to go through the baseplate to put the washers and nuts on as normal. All this will be self-explanatory when you eventually get things apart!
For Charles - I don't know what the gasket is for other than a degree of waterproofing, or unless to keep dissimilar metals apart - there is no insulating purpose to the gaskets. I have only had one or two motors with this gasket - most have the box bolted direct to the base. Later types of the same box, but with a diecast body and a later style of points do have a mica gasket under the points themselves, which is for insulation. Rick

[sierramuir]

Thank you again guys,

With your knowledge, I was able to get the condenser off today. Its really caked with a white powdery substance that looks like old dried battery acid. I hava a feeling the condenser is out and is the root of my no spark situation.

So far, I am having a difficult time finding that part here in the US. Would you guys know if there are any current condensers that are similar in schematic to the Villiers model?

Thanks again for all the help!

[Duane A.]

Hello,
Check John's SOS links for U.S. dealers! John at SOS has been very helpful to all us colony people. Sean in S.F. Calf. and Ron B. - Seagull Shop - B.C. Ca. just sold out to a man in Washington state check his link. Another is Frank Valentino's site - E-mail - Seagull508 AT aol.com (Birdland) here in this U.S. New England Seagulls - Paul Baggenfoss (another great Seagull person to deal with!) parts are here in the good ol USA you just have to dig!!
Fair Winds
Duane

[RickUK]

Hi Sierra - well done on the condensor front! - I don't know if you can find a Villiers style condensor locally, or whether John of this site can fix you up. I have just bought one from a company called Meetens in London - I don't have an address with me - but you can find them via Google, and I'm sure they would mail internationally. I paid £27.00 all up, so approx $45.00 - not cheap, but at least I have a known quantity compared to a 50 year old part. Rick.

[sierramuir]

Thank You Duane and Rick for the replacement part contacts. Judging from the untampered paper on the back of the points cylindrical box, it looks like my condenser was never replaced. Hope a replacement condenser will give me a spark. I read in another forum that some seagull owners have used automotive type ignition condensers from local part shops. That sure would be easier and less expensive but I was afraid it might do something to the points or coil. Do you guys think this might be an alternative or is it a lead I should not follow. Thanks again to Everyone ! I would not have got this far without your help.

[Duane A.]

Sorry,
I haven't had to try the U.S auto store type parts yet, so I have no data to help. I seem to luck onto parts motors at marine Flea markets etc. to keep my workbench supplied with the odd parts I need. John at SOS and the people he has listed on his links and that I have found on search engines seem to fill in the odd blanks I come across needing over time. I even bought a box of mixed parts off ebay once that sure helped get a couple of my flock running at a much lower cost than I had hoped.
Good Luck in your parts search,
Duane

[RickUK]

I believe you could use a standard automotive condensor - this won't have any adverse effect on the rest of the system. I think you would need a condensor rated for 6volt circuitry rather than the more common 12 volt, if in fact there is any difference, and the unit would need to be mounted under the baseplate with a hole drilled for the connecting wire, as there isn't room internally. Rick

[charlesp]

A thought - have you tried the 'spinning it up on an electric drill' method of reviving old magnetos? I have had successful results from this on a number of occasions.

Refer to the FAQ (if it's up and running) for guidance, but basically spinning the motor with the plug out but earthed may save you a lot of time and expense. After a couple of minutes a spark may appear.