I have been watching this thread for a while now and have a suggestion, either end it now, or continue to form the longest thread in SOS history.
But please be nice to each other!
Phil
Techno fantasy land
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
Dwell Ange do we know herdid the writer of that gem know about dwell ange ...??
I've heard of dwell angle. I know that's important and that it was a better method of setting distributor points than the gap in the days when cars had distributors and points.
Am I right in thinking that's the rotational angle through which the points are open?
Why is it better than setting the gap or have I got that wrong?
What would be the correct dwell angle for a Seagull engines.?
Would a dwell angle meter used for conventional coil and points ignition measure it?
Dwell Ange sounds french to me 
Dwell angle is actually to number of degrees of rotation the points are closed. The reason it is important is to ensure there is sufficient time for the coil to energise fully before it discharges to maximise spark energy. The technique used to be to set dwell angle rather than points gap to get that right and then set the timing.
In all honesty I don't think dwell angle is really important in any ( old style ) motor that has four cylinders or less ( or two for a two stroke ) as there is plenty of time for the coil to charge fully, it used to become more critical in 6 or 8 cylinder motors that have less rotational degrees per bang.
Thats my opinion ( and that of a few others I know ) anyway, am sure I will be corrected if out a little
Dwell angle is actually to number of degrees of rotation the points are closed. The reason it is important is to ensure there is sufficient time for the coil to energise fully before it discharges to maximise spark energy. The technique used to be to set dwell angle rather than points gap to get that right and then set the timing.
In all honesty I don't think dwell angle is really important in any ( old style ) motor that has four cylinders or less ( or two for a two stroke ) as there is plenty of time for the coil to charge fully, it used to become more critical in 6 or 8 cylinder motors that have less rotational degrees per bang.
Thats my opinion ( and that of a few others I know ) anyway, am sure I will be corrected if out a little
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Collector Inspector
- Posts: 4196
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- Location: Perth Western Australia
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By Crickey! This is a Long Session!
Dwell angle is a useful thing and when electronic "Dwell Meters" were first available to the general public in the 70s, in the hands of someone observant, they were great! (Funny but there were NEVER any diagnosis tips included....)
For example lets take some info from a genuine, 1963 Australian BMC Austin Freeway/Wolseley 24/80 workshop manual.............
Points gap specified is 0.014 - 0.016 thou and the Cam Angle (Dwell) should be 35 Degrees. Makes sense as is six cylinder.
As we all know, a new set of points is set at the widest setting to allow for point/cam follower to bed in etc. The cam angle should be within +/- 2 Degree.
Hmmm, it is reading 16 degrees when you do this. Bugger you think so lets just adjust the gap WAY out of spec to achieve the "Correct Reading".
Poor old Wolsely runs like a stuffed Koala.
The matched specs show that the points cam is worn and should be replaced. Easy as that! Maybe check the rest of your distributor mechanical ignition bits as well as if this happens some TLC and removal of Queensland Bulldust from the gizmo is required.
As far as Seagulls go, point cams never get hot, are harder than any point follower and do not associate in areas of previously noted Bulldust "Holes". They do a duty cycle once per revolution of cam instead of six as well.....
Cheers
C.I.
For example lets take some info from a genuine, 1963 Australian BMC Austin Freeway/Wolseley 24/80 workshop manual.............
Points gap specified is 0.014 - 0.016 thou and the Cam Angle (Dwell) should be 35 Degrees. Makes sense as is six cylinder.
As we all know, a new set of points is set at the widest setting to allow for point/cam follower to bed in etc. The cam angle should be within +/- 2 Degree.
Hmmm, it is reading 16 degrees when you do this. Bugger you think so lets just adjust the gap WAY out of spec to achieve the "Correct Reading".
Poor old Wolsely runs like a stuffed Koala.
The matched specs show that the points cam is worn and should be replaced. Easy as that! Maybe check the rest of your distributor mechanical ignition bits as well as if this happens some TLC and removal of Queensland Bulldust from the gizmo is required.
As far as Seagulls go, point cams never get hot, are harder than any point follower and do not associate in areas of previously noted Bulldust "Holes". They do a duty cycle once per revolution of cam instead of six as well.....
Cheers
C.I.
A chicken is one egg's way of becoming others
All I remember is setting all this up ( with new points ) on an old Morris Minor ( or 'Morry Fow' as they are known in deepest Essex, I miss that car ) having got the angle correct with my new toy I went back and checked the points gap which was annoyingly the standard 15 thou! never bothered again
Can I just say this is the second time I have appeared in the world record SOS thread?
Can I just say this is the second time I have appeared in the world record SOS thread?
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pistnbroke
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:06 pm
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just curious with all these high tech arguments,
A friend of mine has owned a 100 series since brand new, 1961 model, It gets used a real lot having done more hours than a normal motor, he touched the points about 10 years ago thinking they might need replacing or adjusting but only cleaned them, never flushes the motor because it gets so much use and just does basic maintenance, it gives problems every now and then due to age which are always easily fixed.
My old 102 when I first got it had no spark, did the drill trick and it worked, have done the same with a couple of other motors and it worked, have had the same plug in the outboard for over a year and it is still working which I am amazed at as that is very unusual, always carry spares but have never worried about the gap, the motor sometimes gets run for 5 hours plus only stopping to refuel, the main thing I like about seagulls is the simplicity, only very basic mechanical knowledge seems to be needed to keep them going, I prefer the 102's to the later ones as they are quieter and smoother, I always keep the carbie clean and the gearbox topped up and go over the motor regularly with a spanner.
I have found if it is missing it is normally fuel related and usually needs a good run.
don't know what dwell angle is in cars or outboards, I leave that to the auto mechanics as it doesn't seem to be important for seagulls but I am not a mechanic, I only know what keeps mine going, They are a good motor and I think if someone wants to go into the technical understanding of them and bring some modern ideas into them, why not.
Just remember they are the dirtiest smelliest noisiest motor there is and are the only motor capable of converting fuel straight into smoke.
If they are not leaking something somewhere there is something wrong with them
You have to luv em
A friend of mine has owned a 100 series since brand new, 1961 model, It gets used a real lot having done more hours than a normal motor, he touched the points about 10 years ago thinking they might need replacing or adjusting but only cleaned them, never flushes the motor because it gets so much use and just does basic maintenance, it gives problems every now and then due to age which are always easily fixed.
My old 102 when I first got it had no spark, did the drill trick and it worked, have done the same with a couple of other motors and it worked, have had the same plug in the outboard for over a year and it is still working which I am amazed at as that is very unusual, always carry spares but have never worried about the gap, the motor sometimes gets run for 5 hours plus only stopping to refuel, the main thing I like about seagulls is the simplicity, only very basic mechanical knowledge seems to be needed to keep them going, I prefer the 102's to the later ones as they are quieter and smoother, I always keep the carbie clean and the gearbox topped up and go over the motor regularly with a spanner.
I have found if it is missing it is normally fuel related and usually needs a good run.
don't know what dwell angle is in cars or outboards, I leave that to the auto mechanics as it doesn't seem to be important for seagulls but I am not a mechanic, I only know what keeps mine going, They are a good motor and I think if someone wants to go into the technical understanding of them and bring some modern ideas into them, why not.
Just remember they are the dirtiest smelliest noisiest motor there is and are the only motor capable of converting fuel straight into smoke.
If they are not leaking something somewhere there is something wrong with them
You have to luv em
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Horsley-Anarak
- Posts: 2838
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:42 pm
- Location: Surrey
Spinning old engines over when they won't start, works with old diesels as well.
Have done this with a twin cylinder Petter generator unit that had stood for tens of years, using a large electric motor and a drive belt. Spun it up to speed for a few minutes, I am sure that extended spinning gets it all lubricated and oils up the bore, clears it all out loads of induction, exhaust. Loosens up any tight bearings.
No points, condensers, sparkplugs but it still works, and saves your arms and temper.
Just as well this is not a forum for people interested in restoring V6 outboards; it would get very technical then.
We must not be tempted to over complicate a very simple engine. If you have fresh petrol, strong spark at the correct point of the cycle, adequate compression, a bit of string and a strong arm you should have no problem.
You should try starting a 0.1cc (yes 1/10th of a cc) model aeroplane engine then you will know what finicky is.
My passing thought is why people interested in such a niche interest get so het up and aggressive. Don’t take it so seriously, you may discourage not encourage. People running out of date, noisy, dirty, dangerous, smelly rubbish outboards need all the encouragement they can get!
Here’s to page 5 .
H-A
P.S. The fuel tank solder has been finally tested and I will be posting my results soon.
Have done this with a twin cylinder Petter generator unit that had stood for tens of years, using a large electric motor and a drive belt. Spun it up to speed for a few minutes, I am sure that extended spinning gets it all lubricated and oils up the bore, clears it all out loads of induction, exhaust. Loosens up any tight bearings.
No points, condensers, sparkplugs but it still works, and saves your arms and temper.
Just as well this is not a forum for people interested in restoring V6 outboards; it would get very technical then.
We must not be tempted to over complicate a very simple engine. If you have fresh petrol, strong spark at the correct point of the cycle, adequate compression, a bit of string and a strong arm you should have no problem.
You should try starting a 0.1cc (yes 1/10th of a cc) model aeroplane engine then you will know what finicky is.
My passing thought is why people interested in such a niche interest get so het up and aggressive. Don’t take it so seriously, you may discourage not encourage. People running out of date, noisy, dirty, dangerous, smelly rubbish outboards need all the encouragement they can get!
Here’s to page 5
.H-A
P.S. The fuel tank solder has been finally tested and I will be posting my results soon.
