SD register

[Oyster 49]

Hello Metalflake, Thanks for the SD info. Can you post or pm any photographs? I'm very keen to track as much detail in these engines as possible in order to gain as much knowledge and general information as possible.

I have seen other pictures of GDP on the tank, but have not seen any suggestions as to what this could mean.

[Niander101]

[quote="Oyster 49"]Excellent! I have SDP11287, virtually the same as yours. (Apart from the "skeletal" bracket...at this point oyster leaves room and mutters for a little bit)

Does this one have the ministry inspector stamp on the skeg? Mine does not...... mine also does not.

Excellent! I have SDP11287, virtually the same as yours .....only 162 apart!
spose you dont have that ignition then...

[Oyster 49]

My SDP has the flat top magneto, with no flange underneath, plus screw and locknut points. Steel tank and brass exhaust, originally chromed.

11 engines now included in the SD register. Keep them coming! Photographs would be a help, if you could post them.

[Niander101]

Does yours have a number stamped into flywheel?
so we both SDP with a flat top ignition
with locknut points
original then?

[Collector Inspector]

When I send all my SD's details, can I have a copy of the register?

B

[charlesp]

Oyster is quite right to mention the ignition plate with no flange, there are different types of Villiers magneto components.

One difference that is noticeable if you look at different types together is a sharper radius at the upper circumference of the flywheel on the mid forties ones.

These Villiers ignitions are the ones specified in the early fifties Army parts lists as a direct replacement for the originals, so to find a 70 year old motor with a flat top ignition shouldn't automatically lead to the assumption that they left the factory like that.

The steel tank is an interesting question - the other Charles and I have discussed the at length and come to the conclusion that the ones with the 'rim' at the outer edges may possible be better represented in later SD motors. It's still steel, still round, still the same shape, merely a different method of attachment of the domed ends.

When asking about details on these old motors it's important to bear in mind that the owner may have no real knowledge or experience, and the answer to 'has yours got a bronze bracket' could bring a 'yes' if it has any of a number of Seagull brackets. That's where photos come in handy.

[Charles uk]

Don't be silly Bruce, would you want the world to know what you've got in your shed & 1 hour later they're looking at google earth to find out the best access to your storage without passing the house.

The Marston register had an example of this happening a couple of years ago, the gentleman lost 2 Marstons & 2 SDs if I remember right, his visitors left the rest of his collection, 50 + American & European motors.

All uninsurable.

Some light might be shone on the ignition differences if all the JM numbers are collected, flywheel & baseplate, at least you'll know if your ignition was repaired.
Coolie hat ignitions were made in matched pairs & both parts were stamped with the same JM numbers, we have records of JM numbers from JM 20ish up to JM 13000+, so more than enough were made to cover all the Marstons, prewar Seagulls & 10.000 SDs with spares.

We have not been able to find any documentary evidence as yet that the flat topped ignition was manufactured before mid to late 1946, but if anyone stumbles over anything please let us know as it would be nice to get some more accurate dating on any of these details.

[Niander101]

[quote="Charles uk"]Don't be silly Bruce, would you want the world to know what you've got in your shed & 1 hour later they're looking at google earth to find out the best access to your storage without passing the house.


Street view is amazing and scary!

[Oyster 49]

Gents,

Just for clarity, so far my aim is to register as many engines as possible, with the associated details. I have not collected any contact details other than owners forum ID for each engine listed. So any information will be to glean knowledge were we can. Flat top magnetos on 1946 ish engines is a good example. So my aim is to gather data.

The next step could be an email list, if people were interested, but I will not collect home addresses or phone numbers on the central register.

11 engines listed now, 2 SDP and 9 SDs.

Mr moderators, can this be made into a "sticky" thread?

[charlesp]

Apart from collecting numbers and whether or not the motor has a flat top ignition are you collecting anything else?

[charlesp]

I'll expand on my last post because I think it's important.

The other Charles and myself started looking at serials and JM numbers a few years ago, and we had a fairly modest outcome in mind. We wanted a handle on numbers of survivors, and we wanted a good feel for true production figures in the early years. We got that.

To my mind there is an opportunity to learn more about the subject. Nail down a few questions, confirm or deny a few thoughts, maybe shoot down a myth or two.

There is, as far as I know, no surviving document that would tell us about the contract in World War II that brought about these ten thousand or so SN/SD motors. We don't know the specification, the delivery schedule, the numbers sent to specific services. There's much we don't know about the original SN, too

When Seagull were undergoing turmoil towards the end of their endeavours all their sales ledgers went into the skip for incineration. In those ledgers was recorded every motor sold since the beginning. Every original customer or dealer, every return for repair or modification. Every last detail was recorded. But it's gone.

The only printed reference to the production of these motors is the sheet reproduced on the main site, which basically lets us know that production ran from 1942 to 1946.

A survey/register/roll call/examination of the survivors if conducted in sufficient detail, with due diligence, could inform us about tanks, fuel cocks, chrome plated examples, brass carburettors, air intakes, tank types, bracket styles, cylinder block finish, CIESS stamps, throttle finishes and the like. We know that items in military service are likely to take hard knocks, and we know that in the field 'anything that makes it work' is an acceptable repair. We know that flat top ignition systems are (as I've said above) an acceptable replacement in the Army parts lists. We know that military procurement is prone to resisting any deviation from an agreed specification, we know that the JM numbers go up far enough to allow for a healthy spares holding.

Unless we learn from the exercise then it serves little purpose.

I urge you to consider a deeper study than just the numbers.

[Niander101]

If someone wants to add to SD register insist on photos?
Nowadays its very easy with digital
Big shame about the incineration of the records!

[charlesp]

A splendid idea, Niander. If we specify which shots we need then a standard set will provide all the information we need.

[Horsley-Anarak]

Don't be silly Bruce, would you want the world to know what you've got in your shed & 1 hour later they're looking at google earth to find out the best access to your storage without passing the house.


Street view is amazing and scary!

There is too much information out there already, Bruce do you recognise this?

I feel we should all be security aware whilst using the internet.

H-A

[Charles uk]

That is not funny H-A, but a perfect illustration!