Hello, me again. I've started a new thread as I seem to have solved the old starting problem, but have a new problem with the cooling.
I've removed the gearbox assembly, and now see how the pump impeller works. There is no sign of any blockage.
The mating faces appear flat, but I'll obviously check that before re-assembly.
I've found an earlier thread that talked about a max 1/16" clearance between impellor and gasket. When I push the shaft up as far as it will go, the clearance between the bottom of the impeller and the face of the housing is exactly 1/8".
There is no sign of any wear, and the bottom of the impeller lobes is perfectly flat - ie no indication that 1/16" has been worn off by touching the gasket. It does not appear to actually rest on the gasket - presumably because the bottem of the shaft rests on a washer inside the gearbox housing.
So does the 1/16" figure mean in total, or each side of the impeller, ie top and bottem?
(The washer end of the impeller is correctly uppermost, the open lobes at the bottem)
40 Plus - no cooling water
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
It means up to 1/16" at the top and the same at the bottom. The impeller is a tight sliding fit.
I don't think this is actually critical - if the ends of the rotor blades are unworn, then it's probably OK.
So that's not the problem, then.
It is well worth reverse flushing, as others have stated, but I feel you'll need to look in the waterways just to be sure. Most Seagulls accumulate rusty muck after a period, and if steam is coming out it's an indication that the waterways are not clear, rather they are possibly blocked with a sort of porous rusty mess.
Sometimes this is damp and spongy and comes out very easily. Sometimes, alas it's the consistency of black concrete which will have to be chipped carefully away.
Good luck
I don't think this is actually critical - if the ends of the rotor blades are unworn, then it's probably OK.
So that's not the problem, then.
It is well worth reverse flushing, as others have stated, but I feel you'll need to look in the waterways just to be sure. Most Seagulls accumulate rusty muck after a period, and if steam is coming out it's an indication that the waterways are not clear, rather they are possibly blocked with a sort of porous rusty mess.
Sometimes this is damp and spongy and comes out very easily. Sometimes, alas it's the consistency of black concrete which will have to be chipped carefully away.
Good luck
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
If I take the shaft out and sit it in the gearbox casing, on its washer, the impeller sits a bare 10 thou or so above the face of the fibre gasket. So when it is all bolted back together that means there is virtually no clearance below the vanes, and 1/8" at the top. Should I reposition the impeller so that it is halfway, ie 1/16" top and bottem? Do I need to slide the impeller up the shaft, or could I just use another or thicker washer at the bottem to lift the whole shaft with impeller?
(It seems a very big gap, if it is supposed to develop any pressure, bearing in mind that oil pumps of similar design have end clearances of barely 2 thou. But then I am constantly being surprised at how crude this engine is!)
I am unsure how to get more access to the waterways. Do I undo the two nuts at the top of the front chrome tube? Is the other wider tube attached at the block, or is it just a press fit ?
(It seems a very big gap, if it is supposed to develop any pressure, bearing in mind that oil pumps of similar design have end clearances of barely 2 thou. But then I am constantly being surprised at how crude this engine is!)
I am unsure how to get more access to the waterways. Do I undo the two nuts at the top of the front chrome tube? Is the other wider tube attached at the block, or is it just a press fit ?
I think you could just leave the water pump.
The waterways are accessible only by removing the cylinder block from the crankcase and taking off the cylinder head.
I very strongly suggest contacting John and purchasing the manual.
Once removed, the clogging in the waterways will be very obvious.
Good luck
The waterways are accessible only by removing the cylinder block from the crankcase and taking off the cylinder head.
I very strongly suggest contacting John and purchasing the manual.
Once removed, the clogging in the waterways will be very obvious.
Good luck
You may well find the Service Sheet below helpful.
As Charles P says you will need to remove the head.
If you have been able to get some water through by backflusing a chemical descalent might be an alternative. Some people would go for hydrochloric acd, which can be bought from builders merchants as Brick cleaner but personally I would err on the side of caution and try Fernox DS-3 central heating boiler descaler. It'll be a lot slower though.
Service sheets deleted to avoid possible copyright issues.
As Charles P says you will need to remove the head.
If you have been able to get some water through by backflusing a chemical descalent might be an alternative. Some people would go for hydrochloric acd, which can be bought from builders merchants as Brick cleaner but personally I would err on the side of caution and try Fernox DS-3 central heating boiler descaler. It'll be a lot slower though.
Service sheets deleted to avoid possible copyright issues.
Last edited by Vic on Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
If there is a good flow through with a hose then it can't be blocked. Logic suggests it must therefore be the pump but you have looked at that. Position the pump impeller as described in the sevice sheet i posted on your prevoius thread. Are you running it sufficiently well immersed? Areyou revving it up ? With mine the cooling water flow stops at idle speeds. It is said that when running it in a tank the turbulence created by the prop interferes with the cooling water flow. It is recommended that for tank testing the prop is removed.
It won't hurt to give it a bit of a clean with DS-3 but with a good flow through from the hose I would certainly hesitate to dismantle too much, like removing the head. If none of the above resoves the problem then perhaps worth checking the water tube is in place correctly and is intact.
It won't hurt to give it a bit of a clean with DS-3 but with a good flow through from the hose I would certainly hesitate to dismantle too much, like removing the head. If none of the above resoves the problem then perhaps worth checking the water tube is in place correctly and is intact.
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
It didn't feel blocked - there was a good flow of water using the hose, and no gush of rust or debris.
The sevice sheet and postings on this and other threads seem to say rather contradictory things about the importance of the 1/16" clearance. I originally read them to mean it was a measure of the degree of wear of the vanes. Now it seems it refers to the positioning of the impeller vertically, ie there should be about 1/16" clearance top and bottem. Charles I think it was said it didn't actually matter. Surely any clearance top or bottem represents a source of leakage and will stop the pump from delivering its full potential water flow? If that is so, and it is intended, then maybe the loss is the same wherever the clearance is located?
I'll have a look at thewater delivery tube. Do I just unbolt the chrome tubes from the engine and pull them clear?
The sevice sheet and postings on this and other threads seem to say rather contradictory things about the importance of the 1/16" clearance. I originally read them to mean it was a measure of the degree of wear of the vanes. Now it seems it refers to the positioning of the impeller vertically, ie there should be about 1/16" clearance top and bottem. Charles I think it was said it didn't actually matter. Surely any clearance top or bottem represents a source of leakage and will stop the pump from delivering its full potential water flow? If that is so, and it is intended, then maybe the loss is the same wherever the clearance is located?
I'll have a look at thewater delivery tube. Do I just unbolt the chrome tubes from the engine and pull them clear?
It's not that it doesn't matter - it's merely that the service sheet is referring to the fitting of a new one and giving guidance - so it's not absolutely critical. I'm confident that your problem lies outside the water pump housing.
I very strongly recommend that you buy a service manual. It helps to have the offical 'book of words' available and to hand in printed form
I don't think we should be posting service sheets on this board - they are after all copyright, and the manuals are current publications - available through John from British Seagull at very reasonable cost.
I very strongly recommend that you buy a service manual. It helps to have the offical 'book of words' available and to hand in printed form
I don't think we should be posting service sheets on this board - they are after all copyright, and the manuals are current publications - available through John from British Seagull at very reasonable cost.
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
Thanks Vic.
I'm certainly not trying to get service sheets on the cheap by bypasing copyright, it's just that often the fastest way to get information is to ask someone who knows rather than trying to fathom it out from a book.
i've had the water tube out and blown down it - it feels completly clear, and seats tightly. I've positioned the impeller half way in its housing, ie 1/16" top and bottem. I was afreaid of trying to slide an old bit of plastic along a possibly corroded shaft, but in fact it moves very easily. probably that was why it was virtually resting on the gasket - it slips in use. So I have fixed it with a few drops of superglue.
I've tried again (prop removed) in a tub, but still no water even at speed. But probably that is due to the turbulence from the exhaust. It bubbles so much that it rapidly spills most of the useful depth. I'm hoping that on the water the motion of the boat will help the pump. Everything else looks in good order.
I'm certainly not trying to get service sheets on the cheap by bypasing copyright, it's just that often the fastest way to get information is to ask someone who knows rather than trying to fathom it out from a book.
i've had the water tube out and blown down it - it feels completly clear, and seats tightly. I've positioned the impeller half way in its housing, ie 1/16" top and bottem. I was afreaid of trying to slide an old bit of plastic along a possibly corroded shaft, but in fact it moves very easily. probably that was why it was virtually resting on the gasket - it slips in use. So I have fixed it with a few drops of superglue.
I've tried again (prop removed) in a tub, but still no water even at speed. But probably that is due to the turbulence from the exhaust. It bubbles so much that it rapidly spills most of the useful depth. I'm hoping that on the water the motion of the boat will help the pump. Everything else looks in good order.
-
Charles UK
Don't worry about the pump impeller if they are not broke, they work.
I would have thought the most likley cause of your problem is a blocked water jacket, whilst the motor was in 2 halves, did you attach the hosepipe to the water delivery tube? you will need a jubliee clip to stop the water going everywhere.
Water should pour out of the tell tale, if it doesn't follow the other Charles's sage advice & pull the head & start cleaning.
I think it should be compulsory for all new Seagull owners to have to strip their new toys down & rebuild them so they develop an understanding & an appreciation of the simple logic of a Seagull, just as you have.
I would have thought the most likley cause of your problem is a blocked water jacket, whilst the motor was in 2 halves, did you attach the hosepipe to the water delivery tube? you will need a jubliee clip to stop the water going everywhere.
Water should pour out of the tell tale, if it doesn't follow the other Charles's sage advice & pull the head & start cleaning.
I think it should be compulsory for all new Seagull owners to have to strip their new toys down & rebuild them so they develop an understanding & an appreciation of the simple logic of a Seagull, just as you have.
Charles UK,
I had always assumed that all the cooling water came out via the outlet on the underside of the block. Does all this mean I am wrong and that only part of it comes out there while the rest exits via the exhaust?
I don't normally flush mine wth a hose, I run it in tank of fresh water, if I did I would know the answer I guess.
I had always assumed that all the cooling water came out via the outlet on the underside of the block. Does all this mean I am wrong and that only part of it comes out there while the rest exits via the exhaust?
I don't normally flush mine wth a hose, I run it in tank of fresh water, if I did I would know the answer I guess.
No Water pumping...
I thought I had more than adequately covered this in the FAQ page, but obviously not.
The pump rotors on Seagulls rarely give a problem, only if people take them to bits, when they often break. It matters little where in the housing they are, they cannot go high or they simply press on the inside of the housing, they often fall down the shaft to the bottom of the pump chamber, where they gently wear the joint plate, but they still work. They are rotors and do not have to touch the sides, in fact they can have over 1/16 gap with little effect.
They work by centrifugal force, the water spins in the housing looking for an exit at the side, it finds it and provided the route is clear, will make it's way to the block, cooling it and falling out the hole near the head.
There are several pit falls. If an enthusiastic owner has taken the water pipe out of the housing, but not relocated it in the hole inside the exhaust on reassembly, the water will not go up the pipe, just out the exhaust.
If the compression fitting at the top of the pipe has become loose, the water will take the easy way out and not go round the block, but most will leak out the fitting and again fall out the exhaust.
Lastly and overwhelmingly the vast majority of cases, the problem is the block, the cylinder block is full of mud, sand, rust, silt and other crud. Try Descaler, but if not successful, you have to resort to removing the head and this alone can be a problem. Heat on the bolts, WD40 and patience. Then a 5mm masonary drill to sort out the galleries. Again look at the FAQ page, it's all there.
If you place a hose pipe on the outlet hole, all the water from the hose should come out the slots in the gear box. If some appears in the exhaust or from the holes in the drive leg you have a blockage or a pipe adrift.
Thankyou to Vic for removing the manual pages he earlier placed on the Forum. They apparently were the same pages as are in the Manual. Vic did it in good faith as he was given the pages by Seagull at Poole. Sadly they are subject to copyright ...
Sheridan Marine (British Seagull) now own the copyright and guard it jealously, I do not wish to have a legal suite dumped on me forcing me to close the site, it is too valuable to so many.
We all want to help, but have to recognise that British Seagull is not a charity! I have to run this as a business too and declare it to the taxman.
Yes I know there are people out there ripping off the manuals and selling them, they are called pirates. We do not encourage them by promoting their sites or material. Eventually we are all the losers if we do.
All the manuals are available from me or British Seagull. They are good, new, clean, printed books, and cheap. £10.50 for a Seagull manual to cover all the square block models and the 102! I'd call that value. Not the rubbish offered on CD.
I took a risk printing one page of the manual on the FAQ page, the one about flywheel removal, in order to prevent people destroying flywheels. thankfully since I did so, few have broken their flywheels and call on me for spares.. B.S. have let me get away with that page, as they had no spare part flyweels to sell them!
hope this helps
John
SOS
The pump rotors on Seagulls rarely give a problem, only if people take them to bits, when they often break. It matters little where in the housing they are, they cannot go high or they simply press on the inside of the housing, they often fall down the shaft to the bottom of the pump chamber, where they gently wear the joint plate, but they still work. They are rotors and do not have to touch the sides, in fact they can have over 1/16 gap with little effect.
They work by centrifugal force, the water spins in the housing looking for an exit at the side, it finds it and provided the route is clear, will make it's way to the block, cooling it and falling out the hole near the head.
There are several pit falls. If an enthusiastic owner has taken the water pipe out of the housing, but not relocated it in the hole inside the exhaust on reassembly, the water will not go up the pipe, just out the exhaust.
If the compression fitting at the top of the pipe has become loose, the water will take the easy way out and not go round the block, but most will leak out the fitting and again fall out the exhaust.
Lastly and overwhelmingly the vast majority of cases, the problem is the block, the cylinder block is full of mud, sand, rust, silt and other crud. Try Descaler, but if not successful, you have to resort to removing the head and this alone can be a problem. Heat on the bolts, WD40 and patience. Then a 5mm masonary drill to sort out the galleries. Again look at the FAQ page, it's all there.
If you place a hose pipe on the outlet hole, all the water from the hose should come out the slots in the gear box. If some appears in the exhaust or from the holes in the drive leg you have a blockage or a pipe adrift.
Thankyou to Vic for removing the manual pages he earlier placed on the Forum. They apparently were the same pages as are in the Manual. Vic did it in good faith as he was given the pages by Seagull at Poole. Sadly they are subject to copyright ...
Sheridan Marine (British Seagull) now own the copyright and guard it jealously, I do not wish to have a legal suite dumped on me forcing me to close the site, it is too valuable to so many.
We all want to help, but have to recognise that British Seagull is not a charity! I have to run this as a business too and declare it to the taxman.
Yes I know there are people out there ripping off the manuals and selling them, they are called pirates. We do not encourage them by promoting their sites or material. Eventually we are all the losers if we do.
All the manuals are available from me or British Seagull. They are good, new, clean, printed books, and cheap. £10.50 for a Seagull manual to cover all the square block models and the 102! I'd call that value. Not the rubbish offered on CD.
I took a risk printing one page of the manual on the FAQ page, the one about flywheel removal, in order to prevent people destroying flywheels. thankfully since I did so, few have broken their flywheels and call on me for spares.. B.S. have let me get away with that page, as they had no spare part flyweels to sell them!
hope this helps
John
SOS
-
Clifford Pope
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:37 pm
- Location: West Wales
Thanks John I'll definitely be buying a manual!
I did put a hose hard up against the exit hole, and it all poured easily out of the inlet. I checked the delivery pipe and it seems well located at the top (stuck, in fact) and I was careful to get it in the hole at the bottem end on reassembly.
The fact is it doesn't want to pump when run in a tub, but I gather that may be normal and a boat test is the only way. It is hard to keep enough depth over the inlet in a tub before the exhaust blasts all the water out, even with the prop removed.
I did put a hose hard up against the exit hole, and it all poured easily out of the inlet. I checked the delivery pipe and it seems well located at the top (stuck, in fact) and I was careful to get it in the hole at the bottem end on reassembly.
The fact is it doesn't want to pump when run in a tub, but I gather that may be normal and a boat test is the only way. It is hard to keep enough depth over the inlet in a tub before the exhaust blasts all the water out, even with the prop removed.