patent numbers

[Rob Ripley]

Just curious, did Seagull publish patent numbers? Can we follow design modifications and/or changes via the patent numbers?

[Collector Inspector]

GDay Rob

Patent tracking aint the way to go as there is no actual information regarding "THE WHY", also nothing actually technical is disclosed. Also, any little improvement to an otherwise Patented "Concept/Design" is not required due to the initial Patent format.

One option in tracking true Development is via Makers Notes that were constantly updated.

S.O.S. Forum contacts are still the best way.

Also helps out others.

Regards

C.I.

[charlesp]

Patents cover major innovations, completely new inventions or completely new ways of doing things.

British Seagull were, right through their history, conservative to the core. They must have been one of the very last firms to stick with cork seals in fuel taps, stick with a 10:1 fuel mix, and reject reversing gearboxes and swivelling legs. They weren't innovators. So it's easy to see why there are only a few patents.

Detail changes are different. Mostly they're not recorded anywhere apart from internal factory documentation, and the majority of that was destroyed in a 'modernisation' late in the company's history.

A few - a very very few - scraps of documentation do survive, they only provide a glimpse of the detail changes that were going on.

There's a surviving set of hand written notes from the late forties detailing the minor changes to the 102s. Steel tank straps on export models from such and such a number, new filler cap from such and such a date. And so on.

But many of the changes you're left thinking 'why on earth did they do that?' and there are no answers.

But as I say there are patents, the two last being for an experimental twin which never reached production, and the FNR gearbox. Both were designed under Doug Hele's supervision in the late seventies.

As Collector Inspector says, this forum is probably your best bet if there's a specific thing you want to know.

[Rob Ripley]

Would you (or anyone) know the patent number for the twin Seagull?

[charlesp]

Patents cover major innovations, completely new inventions or completely new ways of doing things.

British Seagull were, right through their history, conservative to the core. They must have been one of the very last firms to stick with cork seals in fuel taps, stick with a 10:1 fuel mix, and reject reversing gearboxes and swivelling legs. They weren't innovators. So it's easy to see why there are only a few patents.

Detail changes are different. Mostly they're not recorded anywhere apart from internal factory documentation, and the majority of that was destroyed in a 'modernisation' late in the company's history.

A few - a very very few - scraps of documentation do survive, they only provide a glimpse of the detail changes that were going on.

There's a surviving set of hand written notes from the late forties detailing the minor changes to the 102s. Steel tank straps on export models from such and such a number, new filler cap from such and such a date. And so on.

But many of the changes you're left thinking 'why on earth did they do that?' and there are no answers.

But as I say there are patents, the two last being for an experimental twin which never reached production, and the FNR gearbox. Both were designed under Doug Hele's supervision in the late seventies.

As Collector Inspector says, this forum is probably your best bet if there's a specific thing you want to know.

[Rob Ripley]

Abstract of GB 431350 (A)
431,350. Outboard motors. HARPER, R. O., 21, Bootle Street, Manchester, and IMPERIAL CHEMICAL INDUSTRIES, Ltd., Millbank, London. Jan. 5, 1934, Nos. 459 and 460. [Class 114] An outboard motor having a reversible gear connected to the propeller shaft is provided with a control which automatically reduces the speed of the engine during the period of gear change. When the gear is in reverse there is also provided a stop mechanism to prevent tilting. The depending drive shaft 1 carries a bevel 7 in mesh with bevels carried by sleeves 4, 5 which have dog members 11, 12 whereby they can be connected with the propeller shaft or. disconnected. The propeller shaft 3 is adapted to be slidden in a bearing member 18 by means of a cam 14 and collar 16.; The collar 16 carries dogs 10 adapted to be meshed with the dogs 12, whilst an additional collar 9 with dog teeth is adapted to be meshed with the dogs 11. The spacing between the dogs 12 and 9 is such that a neutral position is available. The cam 14 is secured to a depending rod 15 which at its upper end through gearing 23, 24 and is operable by a hand lever secured to the gear 24. This gear also has a quadrant 30 engageable with a spur wheel 29 whereby control of the carburetter is obtained. The wheel 29 is secured to the stem of a cam 31 which is in contact with another cam 34 under spring control whereby a forked member 37 can be raised or lowered and so set the end of the Bowden wire control 39 to give slack, in which case the throttle 43 is set for the slow running position. This occurs when the main gear is in neutral.; When the gear is moved into forward or reverse, cam 31 is rotated and permits of the Bowden wire control being utilised for fully opening the throttle. When it is desired to speed up the engine in neutral for test purposes the plate 37 may be raised independently. The rod 15 carries two arms 63 and 64 having rollers 61, 60 in contact with cam surfaces on two members 52, 53 encircling both the rod and the depending transmission tube 27. These members 52, 53 are normally kept apart by a spring 58 and the whole installation is free to tilt about the pivot 66. When the rod 15 is turned into the reversed position the arms 63, 64 cause the members 52, 53 to approach a central block 54 and so lock the apparatus against tilting during reversal.

[Charles uk]

You've found the Marston OF, OG, OK gearbox from 1932 designed by Bob Harper's farther. A nice design but very 1930's, & all phosphor bronze bearings.

I very much doubt the other Seagull twin ever got close to the Patent office, there was nothing on it that hadn't been done before, same design as a riptide pictured here 6 weeks ago.

I never understood why Seagull built the FNR gearbox when at the same time the Japanese & Americans were curning out gearboxes that would handle 10 times the power, were physically much smaller & cost 80% less

[charlesp]

1) Yes I have it somewhere, this is about 1980 or so. I will look it up if you like, but it won't be for a few days. I am currently staying elsewhere.

2) That's an extract from the patent for the Marston F/N/R gearbox, which although relevant isn't the one referred to above designed under Doug Hele.

[SAE140]

Would you (or anyone) know the patent number for the twin Seagull?

There's nothing quite like digging up old threads ....

The Patent number is: GB 2 057 380A.
Application number was 8028360, 4 Sept 1979, Filed 3 Sept 1980, and published 1 Apr 1981

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[Charles uk]

That,s the one, 2 170 cylinders on a common crankcase, both firing at the same time, can't see that it was different enough from the BMB or a lot of other similar motors to justify a patent.

I do have a twin spark CDI that came out of the development depart, that was built for one of these, nice idea but old fashioned in design, apart from being loop charged.

I thought it had 2 carbs.

[chris]

I never cease to be amazed and impressed with the amount of info you lot dig up, keep up the good work

[Charles uk]

Some prototyping work was done but very little.
Names were given to new Seagull just before they went into production,so no production name but this was called a "204" by those working on the project in the Seagull R & D areas.

Rather than dump all of Doug Hele's cylinder development work when it was decided not to invest any more time & money on the 204 2 cylinder project, all their efforts were directed toward a single cylinder using the same cylinder, carb, piston, conrod, ignition, all of the parts had no commonality with anything Seagull had used before in their classic engines, which ended up with the production names of the 170 & 125.

A series of motors that it sounds they spent more money developing the style, (I think it was Conran who was hired to come up with the look of the hood & lower tray) than invest in Doug Hele's time to develop a product worthy of the Seagull brand name.

Don't get me wrong the 170 is in my view one of the most impressive motors to ever come out of British Seagull, if Conran's money had been spent on post production development the Gordon Blair QUB decision might never have been made.

[SAE140]

I never cease to be amazed and impressed with the amount of info you lot dig up, keep up the good work

I'm digging up lots of stuff whilst looking for the FNR transom clamp patent .. for example - here's a 1988 patent for a Rotary internal-combustion engine (so you thought Wankel was the only one ?), filed by Douglas Hele on behalf of Norton Motors. That bloke was clearly 'something else' ...