Navy Seagull (??) for sale
http://link.marktplaats.nl/215398144
Navy Seagull for sale
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4955
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
Interesting very interesting!
I've only seen 2 wartime boxes & they were both Oak.
Can't see enough detail of the motor to pass comment?
The water pump housing & below look spot on.
The box numbers say it's for a longshaft D, flat topped flywheel, long water jacket, but with no military numbers, All the boxes I've seen were green painted with white numbers & lots of military numbers.
I'd like to see a lot more detail.
I've only seen 2 wartime boxes & they were both Oak.
Can't see enough detail of the motor to pass comment?
The water pump housing & below look spot on.
The box numbers say it's for a longshaft D, flat topped flywheel, long water jacket, but with no military numbers, All the boxes I've seen were green painted with white numbers & lots of military numbers.
I'd like to see a lot more detail.
I knew the other Charles would ring me for a chat about this one!
We are both in complete agreement that this 'Unique Seagull' is more than a touch dodgy. It is described as:
'In very rare state finding oneself Seagull outboard motor boat. In orginele packing. YOU will find no Second this way beautiful!. Inc. accesoires such as copper lens pump funnels and spout oil. Incl. org. purchase note. '
Please forgive the Babelfish translation.
A few observations.
First, the box interior isn't like others that have cropped up. I haven't seen one for a 102, but the other Charles has. And the partitioning is brand new timber. Even if sawn timber is kept enclosed it doesn't stay white, and this timber has. Original boxes have a felt strap to support the exhaust, this one doesn't, and the nrest of the supports are rather non-standard. The exterior largely matches example and photos, but the detail doesn't. The photos don't show enough detail to be sure exactly what is going on here.
The motor itself isn't a 'D' - it's got a clutch. It's shiny, and the exhaust is plain brass. The tank is steel with a bayonet cap (so pre 1947) with suspiciously shiny Jubilee clips on alloy carriers. But it's got a mid fifties decal. The fuel pipe is strangely convoluted, and the air intake is missing.
The transom bracket is an oddity, alt6ough in fairness there are photos of wartime motors that have had this bracket fitted. I have no idea why, other than to surmise that as many military motors were sold as 'surplus' with only the bronze boss, maybe there was another bracket that people found that would fit. The jury is out on this one.
The thing has been reassembled, it has most definitely not lain in that box in that condition for a very long time, or if it has it was assembled quickly - wrongly - many years ago. The fuel tap faces the wrong way - missing crush washer? The tank straps are tightened with the screws at the top.
And - here's a clincher for me - if you were selling an item that you reckoned was worth eleven hundred quid wouldn't you show the serial, so we would know what the motor actually was? Wouldn't you have at least a hint of a picture of the accessories and the documentation? The information about these motors is easy to come by (thanks in great part to this site) so any vendor would surely know the importance of these details.
I am willing to consider it being a reconditioned motor, sold as surplus. That may explain a late decal on a steel tank. But British Seagull would have replaced the Jubilee clips with plated ones, especially if they had the tank moff to do it. They would have put the clips on correctly if they had kept them. The bracket would have been a current version at the time.
So for us this motor just doesn't chime - we are thinking 'made up bitsa'.
A photo of the crankcase would help, also of the accessories. There may be something there that would change our minds, and if we're wrong we will happily say so. But we don't think so. Old box with new interior, made up motor.
Oh, and yes, the suggested price of 1200 Euros! You could buy any Seagull from 1931 onwards for rather less than that. The eBay price for a really good forties or fifties 102 is maybe £100 ish - bit more or much less dependant on condition. Sure there's a box, but that's not a grand's worth!
Caveat Emptor, as they say. I await more details with interest.
We are both in complete agreement that this 'Unique Seagull' is more than a touch dodgy. It is described as:
'In very rare state finding oneself Seagull outboard motor boat. In orginele packing. YOU will find no Second this way beautiful!. Inc. accesoires such as copper lens pump funnels and spout oil. Incl. org. purchase note. '
Please forgive the Babelfish translation.
A few observations.
First, the box interior isn't like others that have cropped up. I haven't seen one for a 102, but the other Charles has. And the partitioning is brand new timber. Even if sawn timber is kept enclosed it doesn't stay white, and this timber has. Original boxes have a felt strap to support the exhaust, this one doesn't, and the nrest of the supports are rather non-standard. The exterior largely matches example and photos, but the detail doesn't. The photos don't show enough detail to be sure exactly what is going on here.
The motor itself isn't a 'D' - it's got a clutch. It's shiny, and the exhaust is plain brass. The tank is steel with a bayonet cap (so pre 1947) with suspiciously shiny Jubilee clips on alloy carriers. But it's got a mid fifties decal. The fuel pipe is strangely convoluted, and the air intake is missing.
The transom bracket is an oddity, alt6ough in fairness there are photos of wartime motors that have had this bracket fitted. I have no idea why, other than to surmise that as many military motors were sold as 'surplus' with only the bronze boss, maybe there was another bracket that people found that would fit. The jury is out on this one.
The thing has been reassembled, it has most definitely not lain in that box in that condition for a very long time, or if it has it was assembled quickly - wrongly - many years ago. The fuel tap faces the wrong way - missing crush washer? The tank straps are tightened with the screws at the top.
And - here's a clincher for me - if you were selling an item that you reckoned was worth eleven hundred quid wouldn't you show the serial, so we would know what the motor actually was? Wouldn't you have at least a hint of a picture of the accessories and the documentation? The information about these motors is easy to come by (thanks in great part to this site) so any vendor would surely know the importance of these details.
I am willing to consider it being a reconditioned motor, sold as surplus. That may explain a late decal on a steel tank. But British Seagull would have replaced the Jubilee clips with plated ones, especially if they had the tank moff to do it. They would have put the clips on correctly if they had kept them. The bracket would have been a current version at the time.
So for us this motor just doesn't chime - we are thinking 'made up bitsa'.
A photo of the crankcase would help, also of the accessories. There may be something there that would change our minds, and if we're wrong we will happily say so. But we don't think so. Old box with new interior, made up motor.
Oh, and yes, the suggested price of 1200 Euros! You could buy any Seagull from 1931 onwards for rather less than that. The eBay price for a really good forties or fifties 102 is maybe £100 ish - bit more or much less dependant on condition. Sure there's a box, but that's not a grand's worth!
Caveat Emptor, as they say. I await more details with interest.
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4955
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 pm
- Location: Maidenhead Berks UK
A very nice looking piece of work, but sorry to say, a bitsa, made with quite a lot of new bits to.
It has a Wartime crankcase, lower unit & prop, flywheel & cover & carb,
from the number which should make it an early SD the brass bits on the carb would have been chromed as would the water & fuel pipes & tap the unchromed parts only seem to appear on very late SDs & as post war spares. Sorry forgot the drive shaft tube the SD ones were zinc coated not chrome.The fuel tank is just post war & the tank transfer post 1954.
The War time boxes I've seen were made of tongue & grooved Oak boards painted drab army green with loads of white stenciled numbers including serial number, on the side & end, with rope carry handles on each end, the lids were bolt down not hinged.
The value here in the UK on somewhere like the bay for a good, running, original example in the correct box I would expect to see around the £200 mark & perhaps up to 50% more with the right serial numbers on the box,
what say you Charles & Rick
At 750 Euros, that would make this worth as much as an ok 5R, I know which I'd rather own.
It has a Wartime crankcase, lower unit & prop, flywheel & cover & carb,
from the number which should make it an early SD the brass bits on the carb would have been chromed as would the water & fuel pipes & tap the unchromed parts only seem to appear on very late SDs & as post war spares. Sorry forgot the drive shaft tube the SD ones were zinc coated not chrome.The fuel tank is just post war & the tank transfer post 1954.
The War time boxes I've seen were made of tongue & grooved Oak boards painted drab army green with loads of white stenciled numbers including serial number, on the side & end, with rope carry handles on each end, the lids were bolt down not hinged.
The value here in the UK on somewhere like the bay for a good, running, original example in the correct box I would expect to see around the £200 mark & perhaps up to 50% more with the right serial numbers on the box,
what say you Charles & Rick
At 750 Euros, that would make this worth as much as an ok 5R, I know which I'd rather own.
Last edited by Charles uk on Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sounds about right to me, Charles.
Could someone get the JM number for the register?
I would very much like to see the bill of sale.
On the bright side, having learned that part of the pension fund that pays me is in Iceland, and some was with that Ponzi scheme character, I no longer have to worry!
Perhaps we should have a competition here for the most inventive eBay description, complete with photo?
Could someone get the JM number for the register?
I would very much like to see the bill of sale.
On the bright side, having learned that part of the pension fund that pays me is in Iceland, and some was with that Ponzi scheme character, I no longer have to worry!
Perhaps we should have a competition here for the most inventive eBay description, complete with photo?
E Bay
Another 'beware the Bay', good job you lads are on your toes!
Regards,
John
Regards,
John