Putting up a real fight!!!

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Polybus
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Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:32 pm

G'day Guys,

Currently restoring LS27327L (which doesn't appear to be a long shaft any more.....and its fighting me every inch of the way :evil:

I'm slowly getting there, but I'm currently a bit stuck.

This is my first Seagull Restoration so I've got a couple of questions that you guys might be able to help me with.

Check out these photos - Villiers Ignition.
P1130023.JPG
P1130026.JPG
P1130025.JPG
Three questions :)

1: See the largish Grub Screw that goes in towards the centre - (I think it fixes the timing)- I just can't get it out - I've tried with a hand impact driver - but as you can see - all I've manage to do is warp the head of the grub screw - I have stopped because I'm not sure how much more abuse it will take.

Is there anything special about that screw? Is it reverse thread? Any tips on getting it undone? I've given it a lot of penetrating oil, but I haven't been game to use too much heat because I haven't been able to get the coil off yet - which leads me to question 2.

2: I have got the two screws out which appear to hold the coil in place, I've also got the nuts off which also may (or may not) hold the coil in place, butI still cant get the coil off. It doesn't appear as if anything is holding it in place now - but it is still stuck quite firmly. Do those two threaded studs you see in the photos - (some photos with the nuts on,some photos with the nuts off) bang through the base place to remove the coil? I'm thinking that the end of the stud I can see is part of one of these ( https://www.sheridanmarine.com/product/ ... l-end-stud ) and if so it should just bang through the base plate- is that correct? If yes, then I guess its just being stuck fast by corrosion.

3: I just can't get the head off - I've got all the head nuts off - but the head still won't budge. I'm very wary of bashing it too hard with a mallet - as I've read reports of snapping off the alloy projections on the head - I'm assuming its just a lot of corrosion between the head studs and the head holding it in place. Once I get the coil off I can soak it in something, but until then I'm a bit stuck. Suggestions???

Thanks heaps for any advice you can give.

Cheers.
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Oyster 49
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Oyster 49 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:22 pm

welcome to the forum 8)
Heat is often your friend, particularly as you are facing steel fasteners in aluminium. For the ignition baseplate screw, apply heat and it should loosen off, it is a normal right hand thread, and new ones are available from SOS. Fit a new part with some copper grease on the threads.

Head might be stuck on because of previous use of gasket sealant. You are right to be wary of damaging the tank mount lugs. I’d suggest some gentle persuasion with a rubber mallet from various directions to loosen the head. It will come off in time.

Those magnet retaining screws to tend to stick, but one the nuts are removed you should be able to gently prise away the magnets, as they are also ferrous they tend to corrode and weld themselves to the alloy baseplate. A sharp chisel can help with some care!

Take your time, don’t go mad with the hammer, and careful use of heat!

RickUK
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by RickUK » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:59 pm

About the only way to remove the baseplate screw is with a lot of heat(and give the aluminium time to 'grow'), but before you can do this the plate needs to be fully stripped of coil and points box before you can get serious with this.
The slot is well past the use of a screwdriver, but see if you can get a pair of molegrips tightly on the exposed shank - you're a bit unlucky with this, as some motors have a goodly length of screw on show. Have the backplate well secured in a vice as you don't want a wresting match with a hot part all round the bench!
With the ally hot and the molegrips on, rock the screw in both directions, when all being well, it should free up quite quickly. Penetrating oil is useless in this case, as the ally and steel have oxidised to form a seal. Normally it is only the first quarter inch or so of the thread which has seized in the thread.

The screw has a fine thread - B.S.C. I believe - not that this helps you, and as Oyster says, fit the new screw with a good dollop of copper grease - four dollops =1 gurgle.

tambikeboy
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by tambikeboy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:16 pm

Chances are that the head caskets are steel opposed to copper and probably welded together with corrosion as oyster say heat is conna be your best friend and patience .in time it will loosen.
.
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Charles uk
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Charles uk » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:14 pm

As you've damaged the base plate locking screw, it no longer matters if you damage the screw, I remove them by TIG welding an 8mm bolt to the end of the slotted head & while it's still hot from the welding put a spanner on it, if you use a long bolt it will stick out past the base plate.

Often they're locked by aluminium oxide at the start of the thread & before.

As Nudge states in his thread chart it's a 5/16" British standard cycle thread 26 TPI.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

blokewithaboat
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by blokewithaboat » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:23 am

Heat and lots of it. Don't be afraid.
Does the coil still make sparks? If it doesn't then heat the base plate as it won't matter much anyway if you're going to replace all the electricals. If by some miracle the ignition still works you'll need to apply heat GENTLY around the outside of the timing screw or weld something on the end of the screw . Vice grips on what's left of the screw head should do the trick along with some heat.

I've found a thin craft knife or putty knife gently worked between the cylinder head and gasket can work at getting things apart.That and heat, lots of heat. Be patient as there's probably a lot of corrosion that you can't see yet particularly around those head studs.

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Hugz
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Hugz » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 am

Coil studs threaded into the base plate on the jm mag. But see your point there is no way of turning the stud so l think not. Both holes threaded on the coil mounts.

You did well getting the two slotted screws out!

Polybus
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:26 am

Success!!!! Sort of :|

Thanks so much for all your thoughts nd suggestions - I've had a good read of them all and tried to absorb your advice and had another go at it, with minor success - but each step is a small victory.

I have now managed to remove one of the coil retaining studs.

Re my initial question on bashing the coil retaining stud through the base plate - that was the totally wrong approach (at least on this engine) the studs have threads on both ends, with a little collar in the middle - this is the part I am talking about:
P1150028.JPG
So on one end it threaded into the coil and on the other a nut to hold the high tension lead guide.And that little collar thing that you see stops it going through the base plate- so no amount of bashing would have helped - probably would have just broken something. (Sorry if this is all old news to you experienced guys - but its all new to me :mrgreen: )

I managed to back one of them out with the old two nut trick, but try as I might, it won't work with the other one - bummer!!!
P1150030.JPG
P1150031.JPG
P1150032.JPG
As you can see- it doesn't *appear* to be too badly corroded in - but who knows what lurks beneath the surface!!

Seems like a strange arrangement - almost designed to be hard to remove- perhaps it is to protect the poor little seagull from Chuckle Heads like me :oops:

I'll have another think about it and see what I come up with. I am away from home at the moment, this engine amuses me while I m away, so I don't have access to a welder to weld a nut on the end. And even if I was at home with my welder- I'm a bit nervous about what the weld splatter might do to the aluminium around it.

What do you guys think of possibly Lok-Tight ing on a nut with the strongest Lok-Tight - the one where you need heat to break the seal, and the trying to back it out with that - and of course I can deal with getting the nut off with heat later - or just buy new studs - they're just a few cents (pence) each.

Would the Lok-Tight work?? I guess it can't hurt much to give it a try.

I really need to get this coil off to enable me to apply lots of heat to the Base Plate Screw. I will put your advice into practice as soon as I get this coil off.

So - progress, but not much :)

Thanks again for all your advice.
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Hugz
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Hugz » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:00 am

Good info. In Australia they rarely fail (coils).

Funnily enough l was watching a youtube on comparison of different liquid fasteners. JB weld was a clear winner. Loctite not so much.

https://youtu.be/H4xX7VecgzA

Polybus
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:15 am

Yea - I use JB Weld quite a lot, and it was the first thing I thought of for this, but once that nut is JB Welded to the stud - it ain't coming off again,so I thought I'd give it a go with Super Bond Lok-Tight first.

If it works and I get the stud out - happy days - and then I can apply heat to the Lok-Tight to get the nut off.

If it fails, ie: the Lok-Tight is not strong enough and the nut breaks loose before the stud comes out - well then I'll have a go with JB Weld.

It is claimed:
A: When fully cured, J-B Weld can only be removed by grinding or filing it off, or by directly heating the product above the 600 degree maximum temperature threshold. There are commercially available solvents for removing epoxy based glues.Acetone will eventually do super glue,but,of course,not epoxy.
So I guess I could try heating the JB Weld off-but too late - I've bought the Lok-Tight now.

Just as an aside (jeezus I talk a lot don't I??)

You might be wondering why I am so concerned about saving the original studs, seeing as they are only a couple of cents each for new ones.

I am one of those who like to use as many of the original parts as possible, if it can be saved, I like to save it. Something about the nice feeling I get when the restoration is complete and all put back together as close of possible to the same parts that came out of the factory. But thats just the way I like to do stuff - I also admire any form of restoration, new parts, old parts, just get them back to their former glory- I love it!!

Now - back to the seagull.

Polybus
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:39 pm

Nut is now Loctite-ed to the stud.

So I'll give it a couple of days to really cure and get stuck into it - mind you - it was 48C degrees here today so it's probably dried already - it was like living in an oven!!

I'll let you know how it goes :)
Last edited by Polybus on Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gannet
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Gannet » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:07 pm

With regard to the cylinder head removal, could I ask why do you want to remove it?
You could consider running the engine and then decide if it really needs to be removed.

But if you really do want to remove it and there appears to be corrosion products between the studs and the head, I have resolved that problem by buying a packet of small drills (about 1.5mm) and drilling into this corrosion. Then using various small narrow screwdriver blades hammered into the space between the head and stud, will eventually loosen the grip of the head to stud. Remember the stud is quite long and will flex a bit. But luck is required!

Jeremy

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Charles uk
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Charles uk » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:05 pm

I hang them over an ultrasonic cleaner by the crankshaft with the head gasket just below the surface of the liquid.

All of the difficult ones I've removed were held in place by a concretion of aluminium oxide around the head studs which the ultrasonic shook apart.

I clean carbs, fuel taps, cylinder heads in hot water with a few drips of washing up liquid, without degreasing & cleaning first, 20 minutes later magic!

Cylinders I clean in diesel.

I reassemble with a wipe of RTV around the head studs/bolts, no corrosion then & they come out easy.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Polybus
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Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:28 pm

Actually these both sound like great ideas.

As you know - I am away from home working out in the Australian Bush for a couple of weeks so I'm away from my ultrasonic cleaner (and almost all of my tools/shed/etc),so that's off the table for the moment.

While I'm out here - I will carefully try to break up the corrosion with Gannet's method - but very carefully - the phrase "But luck is required" sounds ominous - but I will give it a shot within my skill level.

And when I go home in a week and a half - I will take the Seagull with me and hang it (hopefully with the corrosion a bit loosened) over my UltraSonic Cleaner as Charles UK suggested - sounds like a plan. How long do you usually give the ultrasonic cleaner to break up the corrosion - 20minutes like all the other jobs? Or just run it until the job is done??

Now - anyone any suggestions how to sneak a mostly disassembled British Seagull through airport security?? :)

Polybus
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Location: Port Douglas

Re: Putting up a real fight!!!

Post by Polybus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:48 pm

Loctite Blue - Fail!!

It just stripped off the Loctite as I turned the nut - the stud stayed firmly attached.

I am now trying again with Loctite Red - Loctite claim the only way to release this stuff is with heat - so let's see how it goes on this.

If that fails - I am just going to JB Weld the Net to the stud - surely that will hold!!

More to come.

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