stuck flywheel

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deacon bruce
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby deacon bruce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:08 am

All wonderful informational posts. But, I like pictures to go with the text. Can anyone show me how the "coolie hat flywheel remover" actually works? Is there any tool other than a hammer which can help remove Mark 1 Villiers flywheel? And if so, can you show me how it works? I am reluctant to use the "hold and whack" flywheel removal technique with the brass nut for fear of ruining it.

Another curiosity: I have a crankshaft nut from a Silver Century Model 75, and one from a Century plus. The brass acorn nut from the Century plus fits both cranks, but the nut from the Model 75 does not fit the Century plus crank. Curious? What is the thread used on crankshaft end? A 3/8 BSF tap seems close, but its diameter is only .375 inch and the crank thread diameter is .413 inch. British threads really confuse me.

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seagull101
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby seagull101 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 am

Will get pics in the afternoon.

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Charles uk
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Charles uk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:00 am

Your not going to win that one Jon, you couldn't find a member of this site with more knowledge in "best workshop & engineering practices".
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

deacon bruce
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby deacon bruce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 pm

Has anyone seen and or tried this method of flywheel removal? Comments?

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seagull101
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby seagull101 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:37 pm

Just do what Jon said about soaking it, that should work.

deacon bruce
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby deacon bruce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:56 pm


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seagull101
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby seagull101 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:35 pm

That probably would work but i woundnt recommend it. Do it this way on villiers MK1 and wipac mk2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahfY2POTOfQ

Also here is how a coolie flywheel puller works for those who don't know.

Remove the flywheel nut, rope pulley and coolie cover. Next you thread in the flywheel puller all the way so it has more grip and wont damage the thread in the flywheel (this is a left hand thread). After that you use a long allen key or allen bit on a ratchet and turn clockwise till it tightens, you will feel a tight spot then 1/4 turn later the flywheel will pop loose.

Don't forget the grease the flywheel nut on the reassembly process as you don't want it to seize on the future!

Jacob
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Keith.P
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Keith.P » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:45 pm

Above, the right tool, for the right flywheel, pullers are not recommended for later flywheels, I myself have never had a problem removing a Villiers flywheel, never used a puller on one and have seen first hand what can go wrong, with just the boss attached to the crank shaft.
I don't have much experience with wipac flywheels, as I don't collect late seagulls, but they seem more problematic than the earlier Villiers.
But I'm also aware that the early wipac flywheels are much more fragile than the later ones, just something to remember.
The hold up and hit technique has always worked for me, using a copper hammer.
The reason for a lot of different flywheels having threaded holes around the centre, other then for mounting the rope sheath and so on, is also for mounting a puller, to pull at the centre of the flywheel and nowhere else.
I used a puller on a jap engine once and it pretty much knackered it.
If you are frightened about damaging the nut, use another.

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Oyster 49
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Oyster 49 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:42 pm

My two early 1930s Britannia engines have a puller built in to the flywheel, which uses the nut and the rope pulley to allow the nut to be unwound and to hopefully pull the flywheel off. Quite a neat design 8) Not sure if the Anzani did the same?

headdownarseup
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby headdownarseup » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:27 am

Charles.

I'm not too worried if there's a more knowledgeable member out there or not.
This method works for me.
If anyone chooses to use my method then great, i have no objections at all.

To date i've had absolutely no bother removing a flywheel from any gull engine using the lift and hit method, yes even a coolie flywheel, and that's without the proper puller. Some i might add have been left outside for several years exposed to the elements and ended up being pretty darn corroded, but they've still come apart.
I have a collection of beaten up flywheel nuts that i don't mind beating on during the process of removal.
For the final fit i have some much nicer nuts to use for this. The purpose of a sacrificial nut is to hammer the thing without worrying about denting or flattening the top of the nut as it's already out of shape to begin with. As long as the threads are still in tact that's all that really matters for this job. The key thing here is not to damage the crankshaft or its threads. A flywheel nut is a simple and cheap thing to replace in the long run, a crankshaft not so simple or that cheap nowadays.
The lift and hit method is very clearly described in the seagull manuals, and if it was deemed good enough for BS back in the day it should be more than adequate for the humble seaguller working out of a shed today.

As part of the "clean-up" process prior to final fit in an engine rebuild i like to try and "true up" as best i can the tapers as i've described earlier. Again to date no trouble with any of my gull motors and to remove a flywheel once its been dressed in this way makes things a breeze for any future removal.
More often than not i find 2 light(ish) taps from a medium weight hammer and the jobs done providing i've dressed up both tapers.


As with any old outboard motor, getting the flywheel off in the first place can present some challenges to say the least. How each individual tackles those challenges is down to them, but for what it's worth i never tend to stray very far from what it says in the seagull manuals.
Doug Penn i'm not denying certainly knows a thing or two, but i cannot stress enough how dangerous using a pry bar could be for your vintage seagull flywheel. Bending out of shape is serious enough,i've had to straighten a few because of this, scratching the soft metal takes time to clean up but is relatively easy by comparison to straightening a bent flywheel. Probably best to leave any long pry bars well out of reach in my opinion, but if this sort of haphazard removal floats your boat then go for it. Don't say i didn't warn you...
Lift and hit (almost the same as in the vids) works for a lot of gulls, and yes some of the very early wipac flywheels are not as strong as the later ones as there's not as much material around the centres of these earlier flywheels and so they can break into pieces if you're not careful.
As an aid to all this, i use a small ball bearing placed between the crankshaft and the flywheel nut. I feel that by using this ball bearing it directs the impact force straight into the crank/taper and unless you've tried this yourself you'll be amazed at how much easier things will come apart.
Don't knock it till you've tried it. I'm sure there will be sceptics out there, but i've used this method on just about every gull you could care to mention. It works for me just fine as i nearly always work alone anyway and so there's no helping hands close by.
It might just work for you too.

If anyone has any wiser comments to make let's hear them as this is a very common problem across the whole of the seagull range now. In time this problem will only get worse.


Jon

Keith.P
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Keith.P » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:09 am

Not sure if the Anzani did the same?

The Anzani SS has the same setup, but not the old ones, they have a villiers flywheel and ignition.

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Charles uk
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Charles uk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:56 pm

Jon I suggest that rather than guessing, you blue up a couple of these flywheel tapers to see how good Wipac & Villiers were at grinding & reaming these tapers.
Why not try one you've lapped & one you've just lightly cleaned up with a green or grey scots bright resting against a flat piece of wood.

I've never seen one of their drawings so have no ides of what sort of accuracy they were working to, but the ones we measured when we were having 5R, needle roller & racing cranks remanufactured, were very impressive!

British Seagull themselves didn't suggest your ball under the flywheel nut method as the crankshaft was only surfaced hardened prior to grinding, so reducing the impact transfer area to the contact points with a very hard ball would run the risk of flaring the top face of the flywheel retaining thread.
Whereas their recommendation of using the flywheel nut, spreads this impact load into the top face of the thread for as far as the nut is threaded on, though they didn't use a nut for removing flywheels in the reconditioning shop, they used a short length (3 to 4") of about 3/4" bar with the 7/16" BSF flywheel nut thread tapped about an inch into it, according to the recon shop manager this reduced the number of bent threads they had to straighten.

Somewhere I've got one of those bars he gave me & a gauge tube they used for checking the top end & thread were straight.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

headdownarseup
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby headdownarseup » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:18 am

Charles.
I can appreciate that with your previous working background that you still think in the same ways. Good for you.
But can i point out that for the vast majority of typical seagull users that use this website we're not skilled engineers, merely enthusiasts that are working from our garages or sheds with minimal tools to hand. Those folks with deeper pockets i'm sure will have access to machine shops in their locations, but for some of us this is not an option.
Don't get me wrong i understand what engineering blue is and what it does, but as i don't have any i won't be using it.

My "hillbilly redneck" method (which some of you don't approve of i'm sure) really does work for me. These are materials or products that most of us non engineering folk can readily source from just about anywhere if you look. Resourcefulness is what it's about and not necessarily about sticking to what's written down in the manuals all the time. Get's the job done the same way and so far it's worked very well for me and indeed it might work for others too. Just trying to pass on some practical tips and hints without going to the expense of visiting the inside of an expensive machine shop. I thought we (the forum) were here to try and help each other out whichever way that might be. Maybe i got the "helping out" bit somewhat wrong here and there, but it works for me and i haven't broken anything yet. Sure there's been times when i wanted to give up because i've not got the right tools etc. but i've carried on the best way i can with what i have to hand and it's worked out just fine eventually.
This is not the first time a stuck flywheel has presented problems, and it certainly won't be the last either.

Mr. DEACON BLUE i'm sure is reading this with a smile on his face right now, and maybe he's in the same situation as some of us mere mortals that don't have big expensive tools or equipment to hand. Each to their own, as long as the end result is a happy one and it gets the job done without breaking anything then that has to be a good thing surely.


Jon

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Oyster 49
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Oyster 49 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:57 pm

Who said special and expensive tools are required to remove a seagull flywheel? Nobody did. The joy of seagull is they can be worked on easily with a minimum of special tools. The puller for coolie hat flywheels is of course a wise investment if you have one of those engines.

The key thing to remember is that the cranks have a precision ground taper, so avoid dressing it with emery paper, because if you do there is a good chance you will introduce high and low spots, and then the flywheel will never fit well.
Clean and remove any burrs and that’s it.

I’d be interested in hearing how you straighten a bent flywheel by the way.

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Charles uk
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Re: stuck flywheel

Postby Charles uk » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:24 pm

Sorry Jon I thought every car mechanic workshop would have a tin or tube on a shelf some where, isn't that what you use when refitting aluminium cylinder heads to check if their flat enough to not need skimming?

All the heads I see at my mate's engineering workshop that need skimming, show traces of blue, my mistake.

Try magic marker instead, that will give an indication of how good these tapers are.

Just trying to avoid users fixing things that are not broken!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.


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