Flywheel numbers

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Piglola123
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Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:09 pm

Found these numbers stamped on fly wheel wondered if someone could tell me if they factory numbers or other
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seagull101
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby seagull101 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:50 pm

what model seagull, also its it a coolie hat or MK1 villiers?

Jacob

Piglola123
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:36 pm

It's not coolie hat just flat I added some more pics as not sure about mark 1 villers
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seagull101
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby seagull101 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:20 pm

Thats just a standard villiers ignition (MK 2) so the flywheel number is probably just a part/batch number.

Jacob
Last edited by seagull101 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Charles uk
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Charles uk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Jacob I think you'll if you check in the Seagull parts book that the ignition in question is a Mk 1 Villiers.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Keith.P
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Keith.P » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:31 pm

It is an early flywheel, the later style are recessed around the three large holes.
I don't know what date my one is either.

Piglola123
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:50 pm

I was also trying to date the fly wheel as I read earlier ones had jm numbers I not see any info on batch or stock numbers that gave clue to dates etc is that info available

Keith.P
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Keith.P » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:10 pm

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a 1949 flywheel, but that is just a guess.
I have posted this up before, you can see the difference between the older design and later ones.

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Hugz
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Hugz » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:16 pm

Give me a hint. What am l looking for to see a difference? I don't have your graphic eye.
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Charles uk
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Charles uk » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:27 pm

If you search back in "Gannet"s posts your will locate the research he did in dating early 1950's Mk1 flywheels.

We have no information that anyone other than Villiers stamped numbers on the flywheels.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Piglola123
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:46 pm

My flywheel is attached to an engine I am unsure if it's the original flywheel for that one so hence the reason to see if any way to confirm

headdownarseup
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby headdownarseup » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:17 am

I'm no expert with this, but i can tell you i helped Jeremy whilst we were both researching into dating ignition systems.

511/497B i think is a generic Villiers numbering system. Possibly even a parts number.
The date the ignition was made (and not necessarily fitted to your seagull) is usually identified by a smaller set of numbers that are not as BOLD as the first set.They're quite small and not easily seen, usually stamped on one of the "spokes" of the flywheel. Neither of the 2 flywheels that have been posted show anything like this. Sometimes the date stamp is not where you think it is. I've got a flywheel where it's stamped on the outer rim (the bit that gets polished) I have an old 102 flywheel which is similar to those pictured, no dates anywhere with the same 511/type of number.
From about 1946(ish) some of these flywheels got stamped, not all of them however which makes dating a bit harder. After 1947 things fall into place much easier and so becomes clearer when it comes to dating an ignition system. If i was to make an educated guess i would say that PIGLOLA123's flywheel is possibly from 1946.

Coolie hat flywheels have 4 spokes, "flat tops" and all subsequent villiers flywheels have 3 spokes. Coolie's have a distinct "peaked" flywheel. Later villiers flywheels are all FLAT. The very small differences with the later villiers flywheels are hidden underneath the round cover, normally the fit and finish of the spokes is a big giveaway.The baseplates are the second visual identifier. No rim (2 versions of this however), half-rimmed, 3/4 rimmed etc.

Looking at your pics a bit more closely, this is for the most part a MK1 "flat top" ignition, except that the points box is not generally correct as it has the sliding points adjustment. I cannot see the stator plate to identify EXACTLY what you have there. If this is a "flat top" it should have a very distinct casting with NO RIM at the bottom. I suspect that your baseplate may have been "got at" over the years, but i've also seen slightly later versions of the "flat top" with later points boxes.(sliding points)

Genuine early "flat top" villiers normally have a brass points box with lock nuts for adjustment. Later versions from around 1949/51 tend to have the later points boxes with sliding adjustment for the points.

Is there any possibility we could have a picture showing the underside of the ignition baseplate? This will tell me a lot more :P


Jon

Piglola123
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:19 am

Hope these help I removed flywheel but still not seen any date stamps on inspection
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headdownarseup
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby headdownarseup » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Ok i've got it now.
What you have there is the 3rd phase of villiers baseplate with an earlier flywheel. An engine serial number could help me narrow things down a bit more.

It's a bit confusing with all the different types of villiers baseplates and flywheels but i'll try to explain WITHOUT pictures.
Here goes!

The earliest known villiers ignitions fitted to seagulls from the 1930's and through ww2 were commonly known as the "coolie hat" with it's recognizable peaked flywheel and corresponding round top cover in either copper or aluminium. Rope pulleys are small at this stage.

The second phase of villiers ignitions is what's become known as the "flat top" or MK1, quite different to the coolie that came before them, with a slightly re-designed baseplate to match. These ignitions also came with a nicely finished flywheel (the spokes that we have talked about) that seem to have had more time spent on them grinding away any casting flaws within this spoked area of the flywheel. Rope pulleys are still small, with a plain and flat non scripted round cover.Points boxes are generally made from brass and the adjustment to the points is via locknuts. Slightly later versions change very slightly in the points box from brass to aluminium with a corresponding change to the points. Coils in the "flat top" are very different to the earlier coolie hat types.

The 3rd phase of the villiers ignitions is what i term as the MK1B version. Both the "flat top" and mk1b baseplates don't have a RIM cast into the lower edge of the baseplate, but again the entire design of the baseplate in the MK1b has changed dramatically from anything that came before it (same in your pics with your baseplate, NO RIM) Same flywheel that's nicely finished too. Rope pulleys grow in size to the more commonly found ones.
Somewhere within this phase is where the top cover initially started with either a blank or scripted "in the world" at the start/middle of this phase, to the more commonly found "for the world" at the end of this phase. Something like about 4 years worth of production, maybe a bit less.

The 4th phase of the villiers ignitions doesn't really change that much EXCEPT there is now a HALF RIM to its baseplate.This RIM has sometimes been thought to act as a guard for the throttle cable to prevent it rubbing against the edge of the spinning flywheel. Everything else is the same as the previous type. Same coil, same points box, same condenser etc. "for the world" cover.Large rope pulleys. Flywheels seem not to get too much time lavished on them now as the "spokes" are left rough.

The 5th and final phase of the villiers ignitions has 1 further change, this time a 3/4 RIM to its baseplate, everything else the same as the previous 2 phases."for the world" cover. This then continues right up till 1967 when the WIPAC takes over from the Villiers. Many of these ignitions can be found with the black plastic cover/rope pulley(more commonly found on WIPAC ignitions). Most flywheels seem to have been painted silver as well instead of the polished finish of the earlier versions.

As far as date stamps go, after 1947 flywheels get stamped somewhere up to the early 1960's.Flywheel dates become very sporadic after this. This flywheel date is usually found on the flywheel itself underneath the round cover which you'll need to remove first to see them.Keep the flywheel on for this. Quite small numbers that are not heavily stamped so you'll have to look quite hard to find them if they're there at all. Any other numbers found usually on the baseplates e.g. M2053B/1 or 5121/2 are generally a villiers number and nothing to do with dates.


Hope this helps!


Jon


Jon

Piglola123
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Re: Flywheel numbers

Postby Piglola123 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:43 pm

Thank you for reply this helps me understand ignition system set up regards various bottom plates etc the engine attached to this is the one on the right on the picture it sits a bit higher than the sd on the left
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