Hi there first post so any help greatly appreciated. I just purchased a couple of refurbished seagulls for my fishing dinghy. One of these is a later 1984 recoil model and starts no problem. However, the second is a 1977 forty plus:
GFR 182EE7 May1977 25:1 Forty plus std 4HP Wipac Mk2
I went on Tuesday to pick these two engines up from a group of enthusiasts on the South coast. Both were running very well and this one started first pull. However, when I got it home it just refuses to run with just the occasional splutter. I have a good spark, the throttle cable works well and fuel flows easily into the carb. I know it is me and not the engine that is at fault so I would appreciate some pointers as I am reluctant to strip anything when I know that it was running perfectly only a couple of days ago. At present the only problem I can see is that I may have flooded it with too much tickling of the carb, or could I have shifted some crud on the journey home in the car? I have fresh fuel and have mixed this with marine bio-degradable TC-W3.
Hopefully someone can provide some useful pointers as I have fond memories of using these engines on my Dad's boat at Charmouth back in the eighties.
Regards
Chris
Help with non-starter
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
Re: Help with non-starter
Group of enthusiasts on the south coast. Yes we have heard of these before...
Anyway, sounds like you only have a minor issue, I would clean the plug, and also check the points are clean and opening to the correct gap of approx 020" always put the throttle open for starting also, at least half to 3/4 throttle.
Anyway, sounds like you only have a minor issue, I would clean the plug, and also check the points are clean and opening to the correct gap of approx 020" always put the throttle open for starting also, at least half to 3/4 throttle.
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headdownarseup
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Re: Help with non-starter
Can't be too much wrong with it as it's already been running previously.
Go over the starting procedure again.
Freshly mixed fuel/oil in the tank (either 10:1 or 25:1 depending on what setting the carb currently has)
Open the fuel cap vent
Pull the fuel tap to the "ON" position
Tickle the float bowl till fuel begins to spill out of the little hole (don't worry, you can't really flood the carb that badly)
Throttle to FULL OPEN
Choke shutter (if it has one) to the closed position
Wind the rope clockwise around the rope pulley
Then a good strong pull on the rope.
After 10-15 seconds open the choke shutter once the engine is running.
If it hasn't coughed into life by the 5th try,something might not be quite right.
If by chance the plug has become slightly fouled, a quick clean should improve things.(not surprising if the engine has only had a couple of minutes running in a test bin)
0.20 thou inch gap for both the plug and points (0.50mm metric)
(and yes, we've heard about this lot on the south coast before, bless 'em
)
Jon
Go over the starting procedure again.
Freshly mixed fuel/oil in the tank (either 10:1 or 25:1 depending on what setting the carb currently has)
Open the fuel cap vent
Pull the fuel tap to the "ON" position
Tickle the float bowl till fuel begins to spill out of the little hole (don't worry, you can't really flood the carb that badly)
Throttle to FULL OPEN
Choke shutter (if it has one) to the closed position
Wind the rope clockwise around the rope pulley
Then a good strong pull on the rope.
After 10-15 seconds open the choke shutter once the engine is running.
If it hasn't coughed into life by the 5th try,something might not be quite right.
If by chance the plug has become slightly fouled, a quick clean should improve things.(not surprising if the engine has only had a couple of minutes running in a test bin)
0.20 thou inch gap for both the plug and points (0.50mm metric)
(and yes, we've heard about this lot on the south coast before, bless 'em
)Jon
Re: Help with non-starter
If it is not starting spray some WD40 into the throat of the carby with the throttle open. If it runs a litle bit that will most likely tell you that the electrics are ok and it is a problem with the fuel system and if it doesn't fire at all the electrics need looking at. To test for spark attach body of spark plug to some metal on the motor (use vice grips, wire or similar) and spin over to see if you have spark or get an innocent party to hang onto the wire. If they yelp all is good.....
Re: Help with non-starter
Cheers guys, I'll be taking on your advice and having a fresh go tomorrow. Many thanks Chris
Re: Help with non-starter
I've removed the top nut and the starter pulley. How do I now check or adjust the points? Do I need to remove the gold flywheel to get at the points, I can see them through the slot as in the pictures. Regards Chris.
Re: Help with non-starter
You should be able to see the points open though the holes in the flywheel, you can remove the flywheel, but as the points cam is part of the flywheel, you cannot adjust the points with the flywheel removed.
Your throttle cable that runs through the top of the tiller, remove it from the tiller and use a cable tie, as this will damage your cable and is known to be a problem.
Your throttle cable that runs through the top of the tiller, remove it from the tiller and use a cable tie, as this will damage your cable and is known to be a problem.
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headdownarseup
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Re: Help with non-starter
To make things slightly easier for you, i'd remove the spark plug so it's much easier to turn by hand whilst you're fiddling with the points.
Leave the flywheel in place as the internal "cam" that's built into the flywheel performs the function of pushing against the black plastic part of the points. Difficult to see with the flywheel in place, but trust me, it's there.
To start with turn the flywheel slowly and keep an eye on whether the points actually open and close during 1 rotation of the flywheel.
If all is good, move to the next step.
Chances are that the points themselves probably will have a thin crusty layer of crud on the contacts. This needs to be fully cleaned away by rubbing some emery paper between the contacts and the points CLOSED. (this is why i've advised you remove the spark plug because you'll probably need to work through the opposite flywheel aperture to do this and with the plug out of the way there's no compression to fight against) Once you're satisfied the contacts are clean you'll need a set of feeler gauges to measure the gap. To do this turn the flywheel till you can see the points FULLY OPEN and slide the feeler gauges between the 2 contacts. 0.20 thou inch or 0.50mm metric. A firm but sliding fit is what you're after.(a little tip here, a magnifying glass works wonders for this job because you can see everything much better) The slotted head screw attaching the points to the baseplate needs loosening slightly before any adjustment is carried out. The smaller screw is what widens or closes the gap, and the bigger of the 2 screws locks it all into position when you're finished.
With any luck you'll now have a spark. Spin the flywheel by hand with the HT lead connected and the plug earthed against something metal on the engine. You might get a higher rpm's by winding the rope around the pulley and see what happens. Hopefully a nice big fat blue spark at the plug. (you might even see a small spark at the points with the rope pulley removed accompanied by a "clicking" sound.)
If not, move to the HT lead. Occasionally these can break up inside and cause havoc. If in doubt plenty of replacements available.
Try a new spark plug too. Cheap enough and worth doing for peace of mind.
3 golden things that make an engine go.
Spark (at the correct time), fuel supply (correctly mixed with oil and FRESH), and compression.
The first 2 are relatively easy to deal with after some cleaning,sometimes a lot of cleaning, fairly typical with a lot of seagulls that have been sitting idle for years in sheds and garages, and in most cases are generally all that's needed to make your outboard run.
Compression (if your motor is well worn) can involve a lengthy strip down to correct this. Not the end of the world as parts are still readily available for these.
Concentrate on the first 2 and see what happens
If you need any more help just yell.
It's what we're here for, but seeing that the engine has run recently i can't see there being too much wrong. Maybe just a little tweek here and there.
Jon
Leave the flywheel in place as the internal "cam" that's built into the flywheel performs the function of pushing against the black plastic part of the points. Difficult to see with the flywheel in place, but trust me, it's there.
To start with turn the flywheel slowly and keep an eye on whether the points actually open and close during 1 rotation of the flywheel.
If all is good, move to the next step.
Chances are that the points themselves probably will have a thin crusty layer of crud on the contacts. This needs to be fully cleaned away by rubbing some emery paper between the contacts and the points CLOSED. (this is why i've advised you remove the spark plug because you'll probably need to work through the opposite flywheel aperture to do this and with the plug out of the way there's no compression to fight against) Once you're satisfied the contacts are clean you'll need a set of feeler gauges to measure the gap. To do this turn the flywheel till you can see the points FULLY OPEN and slide the feeler gauges between the 2 contacts. 0.20 thou inch or 0.50mm metric. A firm but sliding fit is what you're after.(a little tip here, a magnifying glass works wonders for this job because you can see everything much better) The slotted head screw attaching the points to the baseplate needs loosening slightly before any adjustment is carried out. The smaller screw is what widens or closes the gap, and the bigger of the 2 screws locks it all into position when you're finished.
With any luck you'll now have a spark. Spin the flywheel by hand with the HT lead connected and the plug earthed against something metal on the engine. You might get a higher rpm's by winding the rope around the pulley and see what happens. Hopefully a nice big fat blue spark at the plug. (you might even see a small spark at the points with the rope pulley removed accompanied by a "clicking" sound.)
If not, move to the HT lead. Occasionally these can break up inside and cause havoc. If in doubt plenty of replacements available.
Try a new spark plug too. Cheap enough and worth doing for peace of mind.
3 golden things that make an engine go.
Spark (at the correct time), fuel supply (correctly mixed with oil and FRESH), and compression.
The first 2 are relatively easy to deal with after some cleaning,sometimes a lot of cleaning, fairly typical with a lot of seagulls that have been sitting idle for years in sheds and garages, and in most cases are generally all that's needed to make your outboard run.
Compression (if your motor is well worn) can involve a lengthy strip down to correct this. Not the end of the world as parts are still readily available for these.
Concentrate on the first 2 and see what happens
If you need any more help just yell.
It's what we're here for, but seeing that the engine has run recently i can't see there being too much wrong. Maybe just a little tweek here and there.
Jon
Re: Help with non-starter
Cheers again everyone. I will be putting all this great advice in place and I am now confident with the huge knowledge from this forum I will soon have it going reliably to allow me to use it out on the open sea. Least this has happened whilst on the safety of dry land and as a bonus it is making me more in touch with the workings of these engines so that if problems do occur out at sea I will hopefully have gained enough knowledge to sort out any minor mishaps. Regards Chris.
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headdownarseup
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- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
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Re: Help with non-starter
Good for you Chris
Where abouts in Somerset are you?
I'm only just up the road from you, well.....nearly
Jon
Where abouts in Somerset are you?
I'm only just up the road from you, well.....nearly
Jon
Re: Help with non-starter
Hi Jon,
I'm down in South Somerset near South Petherton (40 min drive from Lyme Regis). Not far from your neck of the woods, we popped up there last weekend for my lads tenth birthday, up the M5 to Portway Park and Ride to spend the day @Bristol Science and Planetarium. As a recent study said Bristol is the most desirable place to live.
Chris
I'm down in South Somerset near South Petherton (40 min drive from Lyme Regis). Not far from your neck of the woods, we popped up there last weekend for my lads tenth birthday, up the M5 to Portway Park and Ride to spend the day @Bristol Science and Planetarium. As a recent study said Bristol is the most desirable place to live.
Chris
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
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Re: Help with non-starter
A nice place to live! You wouldn't think that if you had to get anywhere fast within the city at peak times. Roadworks nearly everywhere, chaos at the best of times, but according to the council it's "organised chaos".
Well, it is nice where we are at least being slightly north of all the hustle and bustle with a good motorway access north/south/east and west within 10 mins of here.
Best of luck with your seagull. If you need any more help just yell
Jon
You wouldn't think that if you had to get anywhere fast within the city at peak times. Roadworks nearly everywhere, chaos at the best of times, but according to the council it's "organised chaos".Well, it is nice where we are at least being slightly north of all the hustle and bustle with a good motorway access north/south/east and west within 10 mins of here.
Best of luck with your seagull. If you need any more help just yell
Jon
Re: Help with non-starter
Still working my way through this non-starter. Occassionally I was getting a spark and then sometimes no spark. I've cleaned and gapped the contacts, and also the spark plug. I reconnected the push fit elbow from the sparkplug to the HT lead as it looked a bit doubtful. Also I've been checking continuity with a meter and all seems okay for the HT lead. Tried a known good sparkplug, but now I have no spark whatsoever apart from just the occasional tiny flash once in a blue moon. How do I test from where the HT lead connects to inside the flywheel? Or what else should I be checking now to get a decent spark? All help and ideas greatly appreciated. Regards Chris
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haventaclue
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Re: Help with non-starter
I had a similar problem,it turned out to be the wire from the points to the wipac coil were hanging on by a thread in the coil.Only a thought
Re: Help with non-starter
Ah good. Now we are narrowing it down. As above it could be that wire but wipac are better put together than the villiers. On the part that you are holding that fits in under the magneto plate the wire is connected by a small long screw which is steel and corrodes. This screw goes through the wire and can cause continuity problems. If l remember correctly you need to pull out the end connector bit and then the spring to access the screw. Remove screw, clean and cut of a slither of the HT cable and reassemble. These cables can be bought new from John of SOS fame if needed.
https://youtu.be/8b210CFTk30
https://youtu.be/8b210CFTk30