forty water circulation no 2
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
Re: forty water circulation no 2
I was researching about a performance car box where they scalloped the side of the gears to create more splash/spray which was better for all over lubrication. Our crown wheel will already spray oil up to the pinion bush but not if the oil level is above it. Maybe the splash factor is why they changed from runny grease to 140 oil.
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headdownarseup
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Re: forty water circulation no 2
My research at work leads me to thinking that no matter what grade of oil is used be it 90 or 140, there will always be something else we can do to improve on what's already there. True, thinner grades of oil will produce less internal drag which is good from a "racers" point of view.
Additives is what i'm refering to at the moment. More specifically friction modifiers.
Most of us will have heard of products like "slik 50" and "redex", nowadays with oil/fuel technology things have moved on quite a bit.
Most of the products have been developed for the motor industry, but it's not to say they can't be used in a marine environment either.
If you've not checked out some of the videos from BG PRODUCTS yet, i'd strongly recommend you take a look. It might give you a new perspective on all this.
As for the dear old seagull gearbox, it's primitive at best but it is reasonably reliable when fairly well maintained. Testament to how many still survive today i guess.
10 hours (or thereabouts) is what seagull recommend between maintenance schedules for gear oil inspection/change. Unfortunately most gulls dont seem to get even that much love and attention.
Preventative maintenance is what i like with most things mechanical, same applies to a seagull.
But then again, i like getting my hands messy, par for the job i suppose being a mechanic.
Jon
Additives is what i'm refering to at the moment. More specifically friction modifiers.
Most of us will have heard of products like "slik 50" and "redex", nowadays with oil/fuel technology things have moved on quite a bit.
Most of the products have been developed for the motor industry, but it's not to say they can't be used in a marine environment either.
If you've not checked out some of the videos from BG PRODUCTS yet, i'd strongly recommend you take a look. It might give you a new perspective on all this.
As for the dear old seagull gearbox, it's primitive at best but it is reasonably reliable when fairly well maintained. Testament to how many still survive today i guess.
10 hours (or thereabouts) is what seagull recommend between maintenance schedules for gear oil inspection/change. Unfortunately most gulls dont seem to get even that much love and attention.
Preventative maintenance is what i like with most things mechanical, same applies to a seagull.
But then again, i like getting my hands messy, par for the job i suppose being a mechanic.
Jon
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Filling up the gearbox.
I only have the seventeenth and nineteenth edition of the operation instructions, but they only refer to grease nipples.
So does anybody have any early books that refer to the gearbox oil filling instructions via the end cap.
The late A4 white service book I also have, does not refer to the motor being upright, just laying down and filling up using a seagull spanner, probably because of that horrible nylon filler cap.
So was this because of the amount of oil loss that occurred with older motors or have the filling instructions always been the same?
I only have the seventeenth and nineteenth edition of the operation instructions, but they only refer to grease nipples.
So does anybody have any early books that refer to the gearbox oil filling instructions via the end cap.
The late A4 white service book I also have, does not refer to the motor being upright, just laying down and filling up using a seagull spanner, probably because of that horrible nylon filler cap.
So was this because of the amount of oil loss that occurred with older motors or have the filling instructions always been the same?
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Hello Keith,
I have just gone through a few of these old books dating back to the 1960's.
In those days it told you to lay the motor down and fill to the bottom of the threads, thus leaving a small air gap.
I did note that all the models were direct drive, (with a clutch model of course if you try this they 'hydraulic' and the clutch fails to opperate).
Seagull did stress in capitals, DO NOT OVERFILL. Always leave an air gap.
They also said oil will leak out, but it will show there is/was oil in it! Not sure that is a clever suggestion!
From 1970's the thinking changed radically and the motor has to be filled when upright and only to the bottom of the filler hole, so just over half way.
When you think about it, if the motor is stored upright, with a totally full gearbox, say as my Forty Plus is, on the sternrail of the parent boat (for the dinghy), a bit of bright sun on the box and the oil will get very thin and would be bound to leak out of the prop shaft. Even if you only half fill them, by the time water gets in and emulsifies, there is a higher 'oil' level and hence the drip cans under Seaguls stored on rails!
Many have problems when they lay motors down. If you lay it on the prop, oil leaks out into the hub, drips all over the place when you stand it up. Others have problems when motors laid down as the oil can just as easily leak past the bevel gear to the water pump and out. Seagull owners always have a rag handy!
The rubber washers many have on the prop shafts are not seals, they may help keep grit away from the bearings though.
If you have a totally overhauled as new box with tight bearings you stand more chance of getting away with minimal leaks. But how many are like that? No check often and top up, as soon as you see droplets of water, it will no longer absorb it so drain it all out and refill with fresh 140, or in the tropics 250!
And yes, I do have the 140 on the shelf here by the litre £5.50 for UK posting only £3.50
Replacing oil a lot cheaper than replacing cogs!
Regards,
John
SOS
I have just gone through a few of these old books dating back to the 1960's.
In those days it told you to lay the motor down and fill to the bottom of the threads, thus leaving a small air gap.
I did note that all the models were direct drive, (with a clutch model of course if you try this they 'hydraulic' and the clutch fails to opperate).
Seagull did stress in capitals, DO NOT OVERFILL. Always leave an air gap.
They also said oil will leak out, but it will show there is/was oil in it! Not sure that is a clever suggestion!
From 1970's the thinking changed radically and the motor has to be filled when upright and only to the bottom of the filler hole, so just over half way.
When you think about it, if the motor is stored upright, with a totally full gearbox, say as my Forty Plus is, on the sternrail of the parent boat (for the dinghy), a bit of bright sun on the box and the oil will get very thin and would be bound to leak out of the prop shaft. Even if you only half fill them, by the time water gets in and emulsifies, there is a higher 'oil' level and hence the drip cans under Seaguls stored on rails!
Many have problems when they lay motors down. If you lay it on the prop, oil leaks out into the hub, drips all over the place when you stand it up. Others have problems when motors laid down as the oil can just as easily leak past the bevel gear to the water pump and out. Seagull owners always have a rag handy!
The rubber washers many have on the prop shafts are not seals, they may help keep grit away from the bearings though.
If you have a totally overhauled as new box with tight bearings you stand more chance of getting away with minimal leaks. But how many are like that? No check often and top up, as soon as you see droplets of water, it will no longer absorb it so drain it all out and refill with fresh 140, or in the tropics 250!
And yes, I do have the 140 on the shelf here by the litre £5.50 for UK posting only £3.50
Replacing oil a lot cheaper than replacing cogs!
Regards,
John
SOS
Re: forty water circulation no 2
In my white book, service sheet No.13 you lay the motor down and fill to the bottom of the filler hole, isn't this book later than the 70's ?From 1970's the thinking changed radically and the motor has to be filled when upright and only to the bottom of the filler hole, so just over half way.
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Hi Keith,
Not sure which 'white book' service sheet 13 you have. There were a few editions and it is the same today.... They are the same as the Blue workshop Manual collection of Service sheets. The one I have here is after 1984 and that still says lay it down and fill to the bottom of the threads, whereas as the same time the hand book tells you to fill when engine upright and only to the bottom lip of the filler hole!
confusing Eh,..
I think I can explain it, the Workshop Maual or collection of service sheets, was never reprinted and edited and is still as it was when these sheets were looseleaf foolscap.. Now that goes back a bit!
Whereas the spares books and handbooks were edited and reprinted.
I can only tell you that if you fill to the top of the threads when motor is laid flat, (direct drive motors only please), You WILL get a puddle of oil when you stand it up! seems a bit of a waste to me.
Better to follow the later handbooks and use the drain and fill plug as a level plug! Saves oil and mess and the environment. We get enough stick as it is....
(Switch to bio 2T oil!!!)
Regards,
John
SOS
Not sure which 'white book' service sheet 13 you have. There were a few editions and it is the same today.... They are the same as the Blue workshop Manual collection of Service sheets. The one I have here is after 1984 and that still says lay it down and fill to the bottom of the threads, whereas as the same time the hand book tells you to fill when engine upright and only to the bottom lip of the filler hole!
confusing Eh,..
I think I can explain it, the Workshop Maual or collection of service sheets, was never reprinted and edited and is still as it was when these sheets were looseleaf foolscap.. Now that goes back a bit!
Whereas the spares books and handbooks were edited and reprinted.
I can only tell you that if you fill to the top of the threads when motor is laid flat, (direct drive motors only please), You WILL get a puddle of oil when you stand it up! seems a bit of a waste to me.
Better to follow the later handbooks and use the drain and fill plug as a level plug! Saves oil and mess and the environment. We get enough stick as it is....
(Switch to bio 2T oil!!!)
Regards,
John
SOS
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Thanks John, I did think that it may have been a compilation of service sheets, But as it had listings for motor parts much later in the back of the book, I thought it must be from the early 80's at best.
Probably still available from BS I suspect.
Probably still available from BS I suspect.
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Yes exactly the same £11.50 !
cheers,
John
SOS
cheers,
John
SOS
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Collector Inspector
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Re: forty water circulation no 2
Gearbox lubricant I check before running an Old dear (Gull) sitting on a rack previously used.
Not much use hours any of them.
No drips under any of them with full cases say two years roosting. Temps range from 12DegC to 55DegC in storage over any year. A tin shed basically.
Maybe mine are special I have no idea.
Check and inspect before catching the horizon however.
Just Saying
BnC
Not much use hours any of them.
No drips under any of them with full cases say two years roosting. Temps range from 12DegC to 55DegC in storage over any year. A tin shed basically.
Maybe mine are special I have no idea.
Check and inspect before catching the horizon however.
Just Saying
BnC
A chicken is one egg's way of becoming others
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Hi Bruce
what you using 250 grade? (Seagull recomended it for warmer climes!)
Suspect your motors will be in fine fettle with minimal wear and thats what keeps it in!
Have fun out there, waiting for spring here, 2 degrees above freezing with wind blasting in from siberia. Hibernation mode here!
Regards,
john
SOS
what you using 250 grade? (Seagull recomended it for warmer climes!)
Suspect your motors will be in fine fettle with minimal wear and thats what keeps it in!
Have fun out there, waiting for spring here, 2 degrees above freezing with wind blasting in from siberia. Hibernation mode here!
Regards,
john
SOS
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Talked about this in a previous thread but to confirm.
After a 16 hour non stop run using an WSPC my log states " Gear oil checked and found to be 75% free water with 25% saturated emulsion. Shaft still minor bend 0.01" aprox causing vibration:" The gear box has since been rebuilt to correct the shaft and replace bearings. It has not had an extended run since.
Conversely LLS 27555 was run for a similar non stop time of 15.5 hours and after a post use check the log reveals: "15 hours continuous running with remote fuel system. No faults developed. On conclusion gear oil drained and found to be excellent no free water."
This oil was kept and inspected 10 months on and a good emulsion remained; no free water had separated out.
Interesting both boxes were, when checked after the run, full to the brim no air space remained. This condition had no effect on the gear selection of the WSPC which preformed perfectly throughout.
I use Strombus in all my gulls
AJ
After a 16 hour non stop run using an WSPC my log states " Gear oil checked and found to be 75% free water with 25% saturated emulsion. Shaft still minor bend 0.01" aprox causing vibration:" The gear box has since been rebuilt to correct the shaft and replace bearings. It has not had an extended run since.
Conversely LLS 27555 was run for a similar non stop time of 15.5 hours and after a post use check the log reveals: "15 hours continuous running with remote fuel system. No faults developed. On conclusion gear oil drained and found to be excellent no free water."
This oil was kept and inspected 10 months on and a good emulsion remained; no free water had separated out.
Interesting both boxes were, when checked after the run, full to the brim no air space remained. This condition had no effect on the gear selection of the WSPC which preformed perfectly throughout.
I use Strombus in all my gulls
AJ
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Re: forty water circulation no 2
Viscosity of Strombus MP is 273 and the Strombus HS is 373. Maybe HS is better for warmer climates and well worn journal bearings.
I note Blackwoods stock HS for Aussies.
Hmmm...MP 44 gals for 1300 quid http://www.smithandallan.com/products/s ... rombus-mp/
I note Blackwoods stock HS for Aussies.
Hmmm...MP 44 gals for 1300 quid http://www.smithandallan.com/products/s ... rombus-mp/
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: forty water circulation no 2
Min quantity from Blackwoods in Aussi is 20 litres still very xe though.
Post note on the previous post; When I noted the gearboxes were full to the brim that may not have been the case. The motors were upright when I removed the plugs and so there could have been a air gap in the top of the casing.
AJ
Post note on the previous post; When I noted the gearboxes were full to the brim that may not have been the case. The motors were upright when I removed the plugs and so there could have been a air gap in the top of the casing.
AJ
Re: forty water circulation no 2
There is some on gumtree at $200 for 20L. http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/kalamund ... 1102486978
Also ExxonMobile make a similar product: Mobil Stern Lube
http://www.exxonmobil.com/China-English ... icant.aspx
Apparently it is lot better for the environment than Strombus and is a mineral composite and is non carcinogenic and has been tested on animals
Here is the Gen: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntApps/ ... ?ID=743601
I've been told that Strombus has been discontinued due to it being unable to conform to environmental standards. Mobil Stern Oil exceeds these: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntApps/ ... ?ID=743601
Available from Southern Cross Lubes & $220+ for 20L.
Or the salesman conned me....
Sorry Adrian, I wont tell Bob Brown....
Time to hug a tree!
Also ExxonMobile make a similar product: Mobil Stern Lube
http://www.exxonmobil.com/China-English ... icant.aspx
Apparently it is lot better for the environment than Strombus and is a mineral composite and is non carcinogenic and has been tested on animals
Here is the Gen: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntApps/ ... ?ID=743601
I've been told that Strombus has been discontinued due to it being unable to conform to environmental standards. Mobil Stern Oil exceeds these: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntApps/ ... ?ID=743601
Available from Southern Cross Lubes & $220+ for 20L.
Or the salesman conned me....
Sorry Adrian, I wont tell Bob Brown....
Time to hug a tree!
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: forty water circulation no 2
To my mind at least, and the same probably goes for a lot of old machinery with suspect service history, err on the side of caution ALWAYS.
With regular use, all of us will get to know our seagulls eccentricities. Some will start much easier than others, some will be less noisy than others, some will use more oil in the gearbox than others, but the bottom line is MAINTENANCE however frequently or infrequently. The little bit of care and attention you give to your outboard will go a long way to extending its future.
Thicker oil is probably a good idea in warmer climes, it cant do any harm after all. This side of the world, temperatures are generally a bit cooler so a thinner grade of oil has always been recommended. The problem comes when using the guidelines in the manuals (and why wouldn't you) after a motor has had several thousand hours of HARD USE under it's belt coupled with dubious servicing, things will no doubt be a tad worn. A good time to start thinking about more frequent replenishment/refilling of gear lubrication when things get THIS BAD despite what any of the manuals may or may not say.
Each to their own however.
Jon
With regular use, all of us will get to know our seagulls eccentricities. Some will start much easier than others, some will be less noisy than others, some will use more oil in the gearbox than others, but the bottom line is MAINTENANCE however frequently or infrequently. The little bit of care and attention you give to your outboard will go a long way to extending its future.
Thicker oil is probably a good idea in warmer climes, it cant do any harm after all. This side of the world, temperatures are generally a bit cooler so a thinner grade of oil has always been recommended. The problem comes when using the guidelines in the manuals (and why wouldn't you) after a motor has had several thousand hours of HARD USE under it's belt coupled with dubious servicing, things will no doubt be a tad worn. A good time to start thinking about more frequent replenishment/refilling of gear lubrication when things get THIS BAD despite what any of the manuals may or may not say.
Each to their own however.
Jon