Before I throw it off the pier.

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:59 pm

Hi folks,
I have this SJP 40 plus for a year and a half and for the life of me I can't get it to run.She wants to start but splutters and dies.
Good compression,good spark,getting fuel.Plug gapped at 20th,points set at 20th,fuel fresh @ 10:1.
I thought it was the top brass bearing leaking vacuum,would fire up and run erratically for about 30secs if I turned it upside down for a couple of minutes so the oil would run back the crank,so changed the crankcase,if anything it's worse but there is no play in the crankshaft like there was before.
The only different thing I did was use permatex rather than gasket maker,it's Sunday and not available.
I have cleaned carburetor and blown through with compressed air,needle set level with top of brass barrel.Timing screw bedded in where it should be on Wipac III,says so on the coil but I have been told it is in fact Wipac II,and on that note,I have tried setting points at at 35th for Wipac III but no joy there either.
So as I said,before I take this and throw it off the end of the pier,all suggestions greatly appreciated as I really haven't got a clue what's going on with this Gull

Nudge · Post by **Nudge** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:36 am

When you say you cleaned the carb... How did you do it, With just compressed air and fuel or with carbie cleaner? Can you see through the jets? is the idle jet clear?
It will go, stick with it, don't throw it off the pier

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:26 am

Thanks for the reply.
Sorry forgot to say it's a Villiers carb,I have two and a half of them

.Yep cleaned with carb cleaner.
Going to go back to start,everything coming apart,again,down to the last screw,clean and dry all,set points and plug to 20th/.5mm.Crankcase will get rubbed on 600grit on glass pane,in fact every cleaning tip I have read on this forum.I don't like to give up on this,but after,on and off,a year and a half,I'm getting a wee bit

headdownarseup · Post by **headdownarseup** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:37 pm

Sounds very much as though the fuel mixture screw is not correctly set on the throttle slide.

Very easy to sort out.
Take the top cover off the carb (where the cable goes inside) and extract the slide with the cable attached.
The little screw in the middle (as a starting point) should be set so that the screw is perfectly level with the top of the slide.
By turning the screw IN, you weaken the mixture. NO MORE THAN 2 TURNS DOWN FROM FLUSH as a maximum or you will weaken the mixture too much and it will struggle to start.
Start with the screw set at flush to start with and see how it goes then. (standard factory setting)
SMALL increments of adjustment on this screw will make a massive difference to how the motor runs (or not in some cases).
Very often previous owners will turn this screw right down in an attempt to reduce some of the smoke. It wont work as all it will do is lean the mixture too far so the motor wont run. (fuel starvation)

Even with worn out crank bushes the motor will still run. Air leaks in the crankcase should be sorted before blaming anything else on the motor.
As long as there's a good strong spark from the ignition and it's all set correctly, the fuel is getting through (float bowl fills up and overflows from the little hole in the bowl while holding down the primer) there cannot be much else to stop it from running EXCEPT the mixture screw.

Although just thinking about this there is just 1 other thing that may have been overlooked.
The small screw on the outside of the carb body (just behind the choke shutter screw) is what locates the main jet correctly in the carb body.
Once you have the throttle slide out of the way have a look down the bore and you will see a small cutout in the brass body of the main jet. The small screw should be sitting right in the middle.

pics added for extra help

Jon

Post by **Charles uk** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:17 pm

Is this a 1/2" or a 7/16" carb (is it the right carb/jet for this motor) & have you cleaned the banjo filter?

Horsley-Anarak · Post by **Horsley-Anarak** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:35 pm

When you throw it off the pier, can you video please, I would not want to miss that.

H A

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:19 am

Thank you for the replies and advice.
So here's what I did today.
Dismantled everything.Put all metal bits in a bowl of cellulose thinners as I only have the spray carb cleaner.
Didn't rub crankcase on glass as there are two wee guides sitting proud in the bolt holes,but it is very clean and smooth anyway.Applied a bead of petrol proof RTV around edges and bolted it up.I did clean the piston and crank,the only problem is a small area of pitting on the bottom end of the crank.
Cleaned the block surfaces and water ways,rubbed the head on 600grit,pasted some head gasket sealer on the block,both sides of the copper gasket and the head.Bolted all back together.Also painted it on the crankcase to block gasket as well.
Put the carb back together,the needle is correct for 10:1 from John at S.O.S.,set it level with brass barrel,small screw in place.Not sure if it is 1/2" or 7/16",it's a tight fit but is bedded in as far as it can go.And it was a Villiars carb on it when my ever patient better half bought it for me.Not sure either if it is the correct jet,have two others,so what numbers on the jet should I be looking for please? Banjo filter and bolt soaked and air dried.
Stripped the ignition plate,soaked it,put it all back together,made sure the timing screw is set in correctly,rubbed the points gently with 600grit,I think they need replacing as well,set on it's way.Set them at 20th,checked,checked again,double checked and once more just to be sure to be sure.
Cleaned and set plug gap at 20th,ohmed the coil,got 4.9,rolled a bit of gravel around the tank,yup,I removed the tap and filter first,washed it out with fresh thinners,dried it and going to wait 'till tomorrow afternoon when I will attempt to start it.
So if I have missed anything let me know please or the video of it going over the edge could appear,and me in after it if the good lady gets close

Oyster 49 · Post by **Oyster 49** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:14 am

What about the HT lead? could it be breaking down under load? Also I would consider the coil, these villiers coils are prone to internal corrosion, that causes a breakdown under load, and still seem ok when tested with the ohmmeter.

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:26 am

I had thought about the HT lead but as it is brand new,I figured it would be OK,though I did test for continuity.My only fear is the screw in end may not be making good contact,checked it and seems good.And the coil is a Wipac II.

This 'Gull ain't for the purist,seems to be a mishmash or a bitsa but I would very much like to get it running,or maybe it's because I don't like been beat

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:29 am

Better pic of the pitting

haventaclue · Post by **haventaclue** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:07 pm

Well it started,ran for aprox five minutes,the length of time it took me to find my phone,and died.Now will only run for about three - five seconds
So number 1, I didn't manage to seal crankcase properly and when block heats up it opens.
2, When the block heats up there is a hairline crack opens,though I doubt it as it wouldn't start before when the block was cold.
3, When the ignition parts heat,a fine break in either the coil or HT lead opens.I ruled out the plug by swapping it for a new one,however,with my luck,it could be faulty as well.
I do think the spark at the plug is very weak but the one at the points is a good blue,so that makes me lean towards HT lead as suggested by Oyster49.It's brand new though.Here's a couple of videos I managed to get,not very good at multi-tasking

And it won't let me add the clips."invalid file extension mpg4",whatever that means

Charles uk wrote:s this a 1/2" or a 7/16" carb (is it the right carb/jet for this motor)

What is the difference and what effect would it have? It's 11.5mm,only got a metric calipers, so I'll guess that's 7/16",what is the correct carb for this bitsa? And I have no idea if it is the right jet,what should I have?
The end of the pier is getting closer

headdownarseup · Post by **headdownarseup** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:00 pm

Unlikely that your "bitsa" has a 7/16"carb fitted to it as most if not all the smaller villiers carbs seem to be fitted to the "little model 40" series of motors.
This includes the following: FV, FVP, LS motors. (Early F's had a small amal carb from 1949/52 ish so i don't include these into the conversation)

HOWEVER, there are always certain exceptions to this rule in that (from what i've noticed anyway) the very early series of SJM and SJP motors from 1955 that came after the *little model 40" series of motors seem to be fitted with a smaller carb. As production continued the change to the bigger 1/2" carb becomes normal. How long these were in production for with the smaller carbs is yet to be determined. (not that many i dont think)

Going by your measurements 0f 11.5mm that works out to a 1/2" carb so that checks out ok. As for specific jet sizes for villiers carbs, i wasn't aware there were any differences. (except for the needle) Charles may be able to help with this...

Stranger things have happened, so don't be surprised if one or two things have been "swapped" in the past.

Wipac magneto's seem to be pretty good in general, although there's always a chance that yours could be a dud. Always worth changing an ht lead as this can sometimes break down internally (as Oyster has mentioned) but will only show itself under load.

Now, that crankshaft?
If it were me, i'd change it for a better one. The pitting to the lower edge looks quite deep and might be upsetting the crankcase pressure, leading to a loss somewhere??? (not that there's much pressure inside the crankcase on a 40 plus) Combustion chamber pressures on the other hand seem to fall in the ball park of 65-70 psi up to around 100psi or so.
If anything looks remotely worn or suspect, i reject it. (but that's just me, i'm very fussy when i rebuild a motor)
Plenty of spares around for these motors.

More pics.... we like pics as it helps to see what's going on???

Dont throw it off a pier

you can always use it as an anchor on another boat

Dont give up with it, i'm sure the answer is staring at you.
Go right back to the basics (air leaks, ignition, fuel) i bet it's something quite simple.

If after all this it still wont run you could always put it in the post to Bristol and i'll sort it out

rather than an untimely death in the ocean

headdownarseup · Post by **headdownarseup** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:11 pm

HOLD ON
just looked at 1 of your pics of the ignition and what's that i see lurking in the background?
An early carb top cover with a throttle stop! (these are normally found on earlier motors from the "little model 40" series with a 7/16 carb)

Go back to your carb and get some decent pics loaded up.
I need to see the front and back sides of the carb. Inlet side and cylinder side of the carb. You might just have an undersized carb (which would be a bit strange) and this might be where all the trouble is coming from.
What's the serial number on this motor of yours?

You were'nt kidding when you said it was a "bitsa"

The plot thickens...

Post by **Charles uk** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:23 pm

To measure your carb, remove from cylinder & try to insert the smooth end of a 1/2" drill bit on the cylinder side of the carb, if it goes in it's 1/2" if it won't, it's 7/16", or it's damaged.

Don't worry too much about loosing crankcase compression, 10 : 1 mix will fill a lot of gaps & big gaps show with oil bubbles.

Oyster 49 · Post by **Oyster 49** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:32 pm

another thing to check, is the fuel pipe clean? I rebuilt a 102 a while back and in my rush to get ready to go down to Hayling Island I put a flexi black fuel line on and ran it up briefly in the test tank. all was well until I had it on the back of H-A's boat, it would not rev above half throttle and starts to die. when I got it home I discovered the fuel pipe full of oily crud....

Saving Old Seagulls

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