Yes or no ?

[headdownarseup]

Not 100% certain about coolie ignitions still being around in 46 when the D's and C's first appeared.
I would think the coolie ended its production run some time during the war years, maybe as late as 44 but i cant really tell yet.

The first incarnation of the flat top villiers ignition (which i refer to as a MK1) would seem to have occurred part way through the SDP run, so for the D and C models that followed shortly after, data looks to follow this trend too.

From what i can tell,the 102's made in this time period all had a small diameter rope winder,matched with a plain magneto top cover. This build spec carries on till late 49 when the next "change" occurs. (normal sized rope pulley) The first time we start to see a scripted magneto cover with the words "the best outboard motor IN THE WORLD" appears a little while afterwards, (55 ish) followed by a re-designed ignition baseplate. This re-design to the baseplates seems to follow what's happening with the smaller motors as well. (FV's, FVP's etc.) Small changes in the flywheel also start to creep in.
The most noticeable change is to the radius to the flywheel edge which becomes quite a bit more rounded compared to the earlier flat tops with a squarer edge to the flywheel. (very subtle changes) This is where a flywheel date is very good for identification purposes. (if the dates dont match to the rest of the motor you know it's been messed with)


This "bitsa" we're looking at quite clearly has had a LOT of parts swapping going on over the years. Not least the ignition. The best i can see so far is the tank/cap which i think looks to be one of the few remaining original parts on this.
I shall just keep a watch on this and see how well it does. (needless to say its data has been logged)


Jon

[Keith.P]

You right its dated 46, but its just a drawing, titled 102, so it could mean something or nothing.

[headdownarseup]

Having sat and thought about this for a while, i think i need to "re-adjust" my previous reply a little bit.

Ignitions:
The years immediately after WW2 didnt provide a lot of cash flow for BS, so going by previous comments i would think it perfectly reasonable for BS to "canabilise" the left over wartime stock made in their thousands to make up a batch of motors, which might have included some of the earliest D and C models. This also might include some of those elusive coolie hat magnetos. Once the stocks had been depleted, the need for a an "updated" ignition system would have taken over.
It has been mentioned in the past that D and C models (and maybe even the earlier SDP's) were indeed fitted with coolies,although by now i bet most of them have been replaced by a flat top or even a wipac just to keep it going.

Many things will have happened to a lot of these 102's over the years. What we see today is the result of many "make do and mend" exercises, possibly by BS themselves or by a well meaning previous owner.
The data i'm collecting is merely a reflection of how these 102's appear today, and not necessarily how they left the production line all those years ago.
Things break! (we know this) Things wear out! (we know this too) How a motor appears in the flesh right now is not the absolute truth however.
All in all a very tricky (and perhaps risky) set of questions to answer with any degree of certainty.

Hope that clears up some of the misleading comments for now


Jon

[Oyster 49]

Probably better to just say "We don't know" unless there are facts to back things up. We are well on our way to creating more myths and theories which people like the "Christchurch old boys" will spread even further, and the greater public will believe.

The facts, just the facts.

[Adrian Dale]

Through the war years 42 to 46 only two models were manufactured the SD and SDP then in 1946 we had no less than seven (nine if you count the discontinuation of the SD and SDP that were also produced in early 1946) separate 102 model numbers of which, by 1947, only two were continued, the AC and AD: the HSD, C, D, HC, AHC, were committed to extinction. Of this latter five I have seen non.
The HSD being a short water jacket must have been a continuation of the SDP series with some mods but the others were all long water jacketed and with the exception of the HC and AHC both pluses, all very similar... This drives to the very root of Jon's research.

I am sure there is an awful lot of information squirreled away with different entities but not till it is all gathered together will we perhaps understand the progress. with regards to the "C" in question, do we even have the full serial number? it is a real bitser with much changed, the tank being the standout. what's it worth .. spares value only I would attest.

best of luck Jon!!! oh; and thanks for posting that line drawing Hugz

[Oyster 49]

AHC engines are about, I've seen one on ebay not long ago. The early barge pusher, with the oversize gearbox and prop, and nippled gearbox.

Back to this C engine, I think much of the engine is correct for that year including tank, gearbox, magneto etc. my beef is with the nonsense in the advert.

[headdownarseup]

Yep, this 102 data collection drives me round the bend sometimes! AAARRRGGGHHH

Just to clarify things here, the SD,SDP and the little known HSD (even though i've not got any records of one yet) i can only imagine are ALL short waterjacket cylinders.Plenty is already known with SD's and perhaps not so much with the SDP's but little by little i'm making headway. It makes perfect sense to me that an HSD would follow an almost identical build spec to its smaller brothers.The only differences being with the larger gearbox/prop combination.Everything else being the same. (dont take my word for this though)
D's and C's i have a few on record now but too few to arrive at any firm conclusions yet as to a specific build spec. BUT (slightly risky of me perhaps) there are some quite noticeable changes with these models that also appear later on in production with the AC,AD and AHC motors. Sadly there are quite a lot that have had cylinders replaced at some point in time which makes my research that much harder. One of the main points of interest for me was with the core plugs. The hex-head plugs will ONLY fit one specific type of cylinder and no other. From data collected so far it looks like these earlier cylinders may have had quite a short production run of approx. 5000 (ish) motors. There after the slotted plug appears. This slotted plug also doubles up as a gearbox drain/fill plug which appears on the smaller FV's etc. (and possibly some of the F's too) This would take things up to the introduction of the "little model 40's" that we all love so much. This time period from 46 to 49/50 is a minefield for me at the moment. After 1950, things seem to stabilise quite nicely into a more uniform order.
The sad truth with all this though is that an awful lot of motors have either been used very hard and then needed a replacement cylinder (which throws a big spanner in my research i can tell you) or the motor has visited the inside of a workshop and had a re-build (also much of its originality is lost at this point) which ends up with me going round in circles a lot of the time as to what's right and wrong with any given motor i get to look at.

Going back to this particular model C, agreed there are quite a few bits that have been replaced on it over the years.The tank/cap i think are original. (using up the wartime spares dont forget) I have a slightly later AC (3392) and AD (1588) both with a bayonet fitting tank/cap and hex-head core plugs in the cylinder.Quite similar build spec to a wartime motor except for a long waterjacket cylinder with brass core plugs (of some description!)

The thing that has me flustered at the moment is with my own D 9666. Just going by the serial number alone 9666 would put this motor closer to 1949 and not 46 as we first thought. (see what i mean) I'm sure there will be an overlap somewhere with the very last of the SDP's but at what point i dont know yet.
From records that survive on the S.O.S site this indicates that in 1946/7 the motors produced were as follows:
First motor produced in Jan 46 SDP12264 and the last motor produced in DEC 46 AC694. Somewhere in here there's supposed to be some D's (9666 being one of them) and C's but it's looking more like they were produced alongside the other 102's being manufactured at the time.Why this would be i have no idea!? By the time you arrive at a 9000 serial number it would be well into 1949. Round and round in circles we go again!

This is where the data is so important. Without it there's nothing to go on except for a few urban myths! (and a few over exaggerated adverts)
If it wasn't for the fact that these 102's get "played with" so much, it would make my job that much easier.
But i do like a challenge and

Rant over

Normal service has resumed
Jon

[Gannet]

Jon,
ln respect of dating 102s, are the flywheels date stamped like the Fs, FVs, FVPs and LSs?

Jeremy

[headdownarseup]

They have a numbering system that has a MONTH number and a YEAR number, so i guess similar if not the same as the 40 series motors.
They use the exact same ignition type/s after all, so i cant see things being any different somehow.

Jon

[Oyster 49]

I assume you are thus logging this date info stamped on the flywheels where possible then?

[headdownarseup]

Absolutely, i'm trying to record EVERYTHING possible that's fairly easy to get at with the minimum of dismantling.
Provided of course that the flywheel nut can be removed in the first place, it's a simple job to then lift away the top cover and take a peek at the numbers stamped into the flywheel. (i've seen them stamped on the outside as well, not where you'd expect to find it either)
There are other methods (visually) that i can assess certain genuine parts from non-genuine parts for a given time period. Once you get into the flow of things it becomes easier the more you keep looking at the same things all the time. Anything that appears different to the rest immediately becomes apparent. Of course i now have the data to fall back on as well.

The down side to data collection is that not everybody is as thorough when returning the information. More bouncing emails back and forth to try and extract that last (and sometimes important) bit of information.
I try at least!
Slow going most of the time, but i'm getting there SLOWLY!



Jon

[Oyster 49]

Yes, a difficult job, keep it up. You can understand what the 2 Charles have had to wade through. I would have stuck to the war and post war period up to 195. A bit more manageable.

It's a shame so little of peoples research is actually seen.

[Gannet]

We ought to try and establish whether the 102 and the early Forty series flywheels of the same date are actually the same specification. Perhaps Jon we could do this?

Adrian,
Your point of people making their research public is very important.
I think the evidence must be made available as well as any conclusions reached. Just research results without the evidence is asking for trouble.
With my data list on F, FV, FVP, LM and LS, I publish here all the data that I collect. Not many people are interested in it, but it keeps me amused!

In respect of that, how do I load a WOrd document on a Post or a PM?

Jeremy

[Oyster 49]

Jeremy try saving your word document as a PDF that will probably load as an attachment. Latest version of office will do that. If you can't email it to me and I'll convert it to a PDFs for you.

I agree re research we are are all striving to learn more, so it is all about sharing, and also saving knowledge for the future! What we do now could be critical in 10 or 20 years time.

[Adrian Dale]

by sharing data we can all critique it and assess our own collections. Jeremy's and of course the SOS data is the only data that I have to go on other than a few parts lists that I have downloaded as they pop up and my own spread sheets on my engines that I keep carful records on detailing the condition when I got the engine through to repair work and replacement parts that I have carried out.

I have now collected AD 135 and am reviewing its condition which I will report on when I get it in the workshop.

AJ