"flat top" baseplate

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headdownarseup
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by headdownarseup »

How early are we talking with C's?
I did say PERHAPS with the SDP's , but not definitley.

I have C.266. which has a flat top with corresponding date in the flywheel. Is that early enough?

i hate to say this to you Chas but i think your AD has been messed with in the past as has the AC. As a comparison here, i have AHC9560 (pretty close to your AC) which has a flat top baseplate (lock nut points)and slotted plugs. Going the other way with your AD compared with one of mine, my AD1584 has hex-head plugs but also the flat top ignition with lock nut points. Flywheel dates match pretty good as well on both of mine.
Just by going on data and serial numbers alone, the slider adjustment on points doesn't become clear until around a 16-18,000 serial number within the 102 line up. Or another way with the "rimless" baseplate. (same thing happening in the FV line up)That's around 1950-51. A good proportion of the "flat top" baseplates i've come across normally have the locking nuts on the points. HOWEVER there's nothing to stop anyone in the past from swapping over bits and bobs from another (later) baseplate onto an older magneto in order to keep it going.This could have happened to yours. I'd need to see both of your motors in the flesh to be able to give you a firm answer either way, but something somewhere isn't right.
MINT they might be, but they may not be entirely correct.

Pics below might jog your memory.
Enjoy
Attachments
SDC12445.JPG
SDC12448.JPG
SDC12463.JPG
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Hugz
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Hugz »

My D with stud points is D2435 just for the record.
Keith.P
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Keith.P »

My D with stud points is D1208 and its got a coolie hat?
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Oyster 49
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Oyster 49 »

Given how easy it is to swap an ignition over its no real surprise that there are different slightly conflicting parts fitted to engines from that era. We may never know and all we can do is look at all the engines we can and record the details, in a scientific way, to give a probability of this and that etc.

My personal view is that the "New" flat top magneto appeared around the time the SDPs were produced approx. 1945. Do I have any facts to back that theory up? Not really :shock: apart from some of the magazine articles and adverts we have seen.
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Charles uk
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Charles uk »

I have probably 4 complete C & D's but only 2 to hand, D70* coolie & C 134* Wipac, I think we can safely say that C134* has been fixed!
I've looked at maybe 20 of these & from memory would say the majority of early ones were fitted with coolies with JM's in the late 12000 to the early 13000's.

I think you could be right about the AC, AHC, AD, ignitions, Jon but would still like to see the data for quite a few before I will be convinced this is a fact.

I think the chances of the Ministry of Supply accepting different ignitions on the same order during Wartime are miniscule, when there wasn't a problem with the Coolie ignitions.

Let's not push Jon too hard on the data, bearing mind he's covering 102 production from 1942 to 1994, this is a huge amount of data & work!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
tambikeboy
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by tambikeboy »

D1737 AND D2348 BOTH FLATTOPS AND KNACKERED JUST FOR THE RECORD.....
Roll me up and smoke me when I die
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Charles uk
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Charles uk »

Post all the numbers under the flywheel cover, Tam. Linked to the engine number.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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Hugz
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Hugz »

tambikeboy wrote:D1737 AND D2348 BOTH FLATTOPS AND KNACKERED JUST FOR THE RECORD.....
Either one have stud points Tam?
tambikeboy
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by tambikeboy »

Doth have brass ignition box and stud points pics when home.......in the meantime I'm fighting storm barbara. ...
Roll me up and smoke me when I die
Regret is just a memory written on my brow
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Oyster 49
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Oyster 49 »

hang in there mate :shock:
headdownarseup
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by headdownarseup »

Adrian and Charles
I totally agree. As there are currently too few of these extremely early long waterjacket 102's on record, for the moment my sheets simply record what each individual motor currently wears. Some of which i think are original, some might well have been "fixed" in the past.

The Ministry Of Supply might have a lot to answer for with the first couple of thousand gulls to leave the factory, but it does begin to look like things start to settle down into a pattern of specific parts at some point quite soon after this.

Bearing in mind that the bulk of these 102's are now at least 65+ years old, who knows what has been swapped around in order to keep a well loved seagull in running order. Quite literally anything could have happened along the way. We've seen plenty of older 102's with newer cylinders (no brass core plugs at all), odd ignition systems, later carbs, newer type transom brackets, newer type gearboxes. The list goes on and on.

One of my biggest headaches with data collecting is trying to identify certain individual components on older 102's and to see at which approximate serial number a noticeable change to the specification occurs.
Easy with some of the bigger parts (pump housings, gearboxes etc.) as they're fairly easy to spot on a photo. It's the smaller details like throttle levers, slight differences in the carbs, thrust blocks and so on. Without a good set of close up pictures of each motor that i'm logging, things become a lot more difficult for me. And then there's the motors that have been "played with".
Those that i have in my shed have all been apart and carefully scrutinised, compared against another one of comparable age, and the "common parts" on both motors are noted down. Then i look at other motors on the list to see if there's any other parts the same for a slightly later example. I go back and forth until i find a noticeable change for a batch of motors that might be spread out across say 3 or 4 years. A good example of this is with gearbox specs and pump housings. Oil nipples on pretty much most 102's made up to around 49. After 49 gearboxes begin to lose a nipple or two, the pumphousing completely changes in its design, so therefore a noticeable change. Unfortunately without a constant supply of fresh data coming in, my lists stagnate pretty quickly leaving huge holes devoid of information for a couple of years. Dribs and drabs is all i can hope for at best. :cry:

In the earlier days of my research i had both Charles's doubting whether or not hex-headed brass core plugs in the cylinders were even a genuine seagull spec. I think i can safely put that one to bed now :P



Any way, i still need a coil in working condition for AC13705.
I dont really want to pay a kings ransom for a brand new one if i can help it. But if all else fails.....
Truth is i'm a tight arse! :oops:


shhh... dare i say it, but i think i'm almost ready to publish the list once i can work things out this end!
But you're right Chas. 52 years worth of production is an awful lot of stuff to wade through, BUT also 2 different lists :shock: ..... what have i let myself in for!


Jon
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Hugz
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Hugz »

Yes stay safe. No need for pics Tam.

We seems to be seeing a lot of "D's" with stud ponts and less A/C and A/D's. Would this help with the debate that the D & C came before the AD & AC?
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Hugz
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Hugz »

Have you tried other forums and bookface pages to garnish data Jon? Plenty of other puta gull owners that are not here.
headdownarseup
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by headdownarseup »

Hugz

I think that just from looking at the serial numbers alone with D's and C's it will show you they were made alongside the AC and AD models. (or at least that's how i'm seeing things at the moment)

WHY----- i have absolutely no idea yet, but when you see the list you'll be able to see for yourself.

Is it possible you could send me some details of these so called other forums :P

Jon
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Oyster 49
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Re: "flat top" baseplate

Post by Oyster 49 »

If you recall the original project I handed over due to lack of time was a SD register. We did warn it would get very big if you went beyond that remit... :shock:

Anyway looking forward to viewing the info 8)
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