Gear oil and two stroke

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croweater
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by croweater » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:59 am

blokewithaboat wrote:Seems a bit excessive renewing the contents of your gearbox every time. Perhaps Charles should have said CHECK your oil level after each use.
It is important to check.

I know gear oil is important, but even so, if after around 10 hours of usage you find your gearbox has leaked THAT much oil there must be something seriously wrong with it.
Whenever i have a motor in storage for a long time i'll often put something underneath the gearbox and prop to act like a drip tray and keep an eye out for any oil that might leak out. Anything that leaks out over time is then contained within this drip tray and this way i can judge how bad an oil leak might be. Crude but pretty effective.
"Blokewithaboat" Sorry I think you should be changing your gearbox oil daily until you know what condition the gearbox is in and more importantly until you know the oil you are using will fully emulsify with water. A lot of the oils available now will not emulsify even if they say they do, I learnt this the hard way.
John

blokewithaboat
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by blokewithaboat » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:11 am

Ok, here's my take on things.
Everyone will have their own form of routine maintenance as do I which although not strictly the same as what's written in the BS manuals does follow most of the guidelines. From memory 10 hours seems to be the general rule of thumb between oil changes.

I don't use my seagulls as often as i'd like. The daily drudgery of work tends to get in the way quite a lot :cry: However, when i do manage to get on the water which probably adds up to less than a week (ish) per year of actual work done by a seagull and with a different motor for each visit to the water, as pointed out by Charles and yourself , changing gear oil every time i use a motor quickly becomes an expensive thing to do regardless of how many hours that motor has actually been in the water.
Bearing in mind all of my seagull usage is in fresh water which to my mind alleviates some of the problems with salt water and its corrosive nature.
I'm happy with checking my oil levels and keeping an eye out for any leaks whilst in storage, and so far i've had very few problems. But that's not to say there won't be any in the future. If after a couple of times of checking the oil level i happen to notice the colour of the oil becoming too bad then i will drain and refill with fresh oil of course.

Not really penny pinching but still being cautious enough i feel to keep my flock going for many more years yet.
Hope that clears things up. :P

croweater
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by croweater » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:10 am

blokewithaboat wrote:Ok, here's my take on things.
Everyone will have their own form of routine maintenance as do I which although not strictly the same as what's written in the BS manuals does follow most of the guidelines. From memory 10 hours seems to be the general rule of thumb between oil changes.

I don't use my seagulls as often as i'd like. The daily drudgery of work tends to get in the way quite a lot :cry: However, when i do manage to get on the water which probably adds up to less than a week (ish) per year of actual work done by a seagull and with a different motor for each visit to the water, as pointed out by Charles and yourself , changing gear oil every time i use a motor quickly becomes an expensive thing to do regardless of how many hours that motor has actually been in the water.
Bearing in mind all of my seagull usage is in fresh water which to my mind alleviates some of the problems with salt water and its corrosive nature.
I'm happy with checking my oil levels and keeping an eye out for any leaks whilst in storage, and so far i've had very few problems. But that's not to say there won't be any in the future. If after a couple of times of checking the oil level i happen to notice the colour of the oil becoming too bad then i will drain and refill with fresh oil of course.

Not really penny pinching but still being cautious enough i feel to keep my flock going for many more years yet.
Hope that clears things up. :P
Mate! did you not read my or Charles UK's post what I am saying is there are 140w oils and there are 140w oils that are happy in an early BS gearbox, If I lived in the UK I would be buying my gearbox oil from John at SOS because I know it would suit my BS's gearbox, for most it would be less than a litre per year.

Here is what happened on a trip I did with a few mates in 2013 (I think), we cruised 2,000kms down the Murray River it took 31 days with 1 rest day and we lost another day recovering a boat that took on water (Sank). The only real issue we had was the gearbox oil, I was having to change it twice a day a real pain. Frustrated I rang Penrite told them about the problem with the oil not emulsifying, Penrite replied "it shouldn't as is designed to not mix with water", I replied but you recommend it for British Seagulls they have no gearbox seals. Penrite replied "yes we do I will check and get back to you", an hour later someone from Penrite ran back and said "sorry I know we recommended that oil but for what your doing it is not suitable, we suggest you change to a suitable oil immediately". I could not find anything better than Penrite, thanks to this forum someone suggested V Seals which helped only needed to change the oil once a day.

Tried to find a post that John SOS put up years ago that explained about gearbox oils, just cant find it.
John

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Hugz
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Hugz » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:29 am

I think it was around this time we were discussing Exxon stern tube lubricant. A little thick though.

https://www.exxonmobil.com/English-FI/M ... -Lubricant

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Oyster 49
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Oyster 49 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:20 pm

Yes, some 140 grade oil from certain manufacturers will not emulsify, and if it does it separates very quickly as soon as the engine stops. The stuff John sells works well, and I bought a gallon of the same stuff online some years ago.

Trial and error of different types is the only answer, or buy it from John of course 8)

Gannet
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Gannet » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:19 pm

croweater,

John,
I am really pleased that the V Ring Seal, which I highlighted here as possibly much more effective than the standard soft washer/dirt seal in reducing oil leakage.

How is yr LSs? Have you fitted a V Ring Seal to it?

Maybe other people have experience of them?

I have fitted them to my FVs, but haven't any real hard evidence of their performance in use. Certainly they slow down if not stop oil leakage from a stored engine or gearbox.


Rick,

I agree with everything that you have said about the small 10:21 gearboxes in respect of poor maintenance leading to damaged gears.
Certainly for those gearboxes with no dynamic shaft seals, very regular draining and refilling must be undertaken. There seems in some quarters a reluctance to accept the instruction from BS that these early boxes used on FVs and SJMs, must be laid down horizontally and filled to the brim. It is almost impossibe to get any oil into them vertically anyway, unless you use a syringe with a very small pipe. I suspect that attempting to fill them vertically has caused many boxes to be run with completely inadeaquate, if any oil. Their max capacity is only approx 70ml.

Jeremy

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Charles uk
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Charles uk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:33 pm

The oil that Seagull specify is SAE 140, which has hardly any additives & is very difficult to find.

The modern stuff tends to be EP 140 which is full of all sorts of additives & some must prevent emulsification, if yours does like Cookie's, when you come to check the level & it looks the same as when you filled it, even though it has a cup of salt water in the bottom, that's why we suggested to Steve he change after every use.

It won't take him very long to realize that his oil emulsifies well & there is no puddle of salt water below it, at that point he will probably decide rightly to ignore the old fool & leave it in there for 2 or 3 trips & just enjoy his fishing.

I have thrown away quite a few Featherweight lower units because lack of TLC, far more than any other lower unit, you will be surprised how much it costs to change all the bearings.

I can't remember how much oil it takes for an oil change, but it's probably 4 to 6 per liter of 140, so his learning curve is not going to cost him a fortune.

This site seems to have become the principle Seagull reference site with circa 1000 man hours a day of guests, I guess they're just trying to learn how to take care of their toys!
Hence our fetish for accuracy.

It's very seldom that we get a question that hasn't been covered before often several times.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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fleetingcontact
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by fleetingcontact » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:52 pm

SAE 140.JPG
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Charles uk
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Charles uk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:05 pm

Has anybody tried this, not a bad price & delivered!

Thanks!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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fleetingcontact
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by fleetingcontact » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:13 pm

I have bought some but confess I have not used it yet. Give me your address and I will send you a free sample so you can evaluate it. You have my email address.

blokewithaboat
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by blokewithaboat » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:31 pm

Martin and others.

Your link to westway lubricants is exactly the same stuff i use in all my seagulls. I've been using this for a couple of years now. Good stuff it is too.
It readily emulsifies with water as per seagulls specifications etc. and to date from using this oil i have had no problems. No rumbly bushes or noisy gears, and more importantly not much oil loss when my motors are in storage for months on end.

They do 90 grade as well for the newer type gearboxes, and for my money they're quite reasonable on price too.

Jeremy
Sorry chap, haven't got round to fitting the oil seal you gave me last time we met up. Might have a look around and see what's available on ebay and have a go at some of my other gulls at some point in the future. I reckon this is a very good solution although not perfect should suit most very low hours usage seagulls like mine just to keep them ticking along quite happily.
I completely agree with you in regard to filling these smaller gearboxes right to the brim with oil. What are your thoughts with the FVP and LS type gearboxes. Would you still fill them to the brim or would you allow a small air gap?

I'd like to know what others think about this in regard to earlier "non sealed" minus and plus gearboxes. What's written in the BS manuals can be a little misleading. Should we fill them to the brim or leave some room? Messy job whichever way you do it but it must be done nevertheless.

Gannet
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Gannet » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:28 pm

Charles,
As I said in my post, the oil capacity of the (early) 10:21 gearbox is about 70ml. That is 14 fills from a litre, so even cheaper than you indicated. Although this can be further reduced, if one is so inclined, by letting the drained oil stand for a long period and then reusing the top oil layer when and if it separates out.

Have you any views on the fitment of the V Ring Seal around the prop shaft? I suggested some time ago on here, that it could be a very useful device to reduce oil loss.

Jon,
I don't have much relevant experience with the FVP or LS gearboxes. But if I used my FVP a lot, I would fill it level with the plug and see what the situation with the emulsion when I drained it after using it.

V Ring Seal. Fit it and see if it reduces oil leakage from stored engines. A supplier is Wych Bearings. Part number is V12A .Let us know how you get on with it.

Jeremy

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fleetingcontact
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by fleetingcontact » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:44 pm

blokewithaboat wrote:
Your link to westway lubricants is exactly the same stuff i use in all my seagulls. I've been using this for a couple of years now. Good stuff it is too.
It readily emulsifies with water as per seagulls specifications etc. and to date from using this oil i have had no problems. No rumbly bushes or noisy gears, and more importantly not much oil loss when my motors are in storage for months on end.
cheers ta luvly

croweater
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by croweater » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:25 am

Gannet wrote:croweater,

John,
I am really pleased that the V Ring Seal, which I highlighted here as possibly much more effective than the standard soft washer/dirt seal in reducing oil leakage.

How is yr LSs? Have you fitted a V Ring Seal to it?

Maybe other people have experience of them?

I have fitted them to my FVs, but haven't any real hard evidence of their performance in use. Certainly they slow down if not stop oil leakage from a stored engine or gearbox.

Jeremy
Don't think I would run any of my Centuries without one, they are not the cure but are a big help and so easy to fit. They don't like fishing lines etc. don't expect them to last its a harsh environment. Correct old school oil and V ring seal would be the ideal solution. I did get some oil blended to use in a Seagull, I contacted a company that blends oil for some of the big companies had a long chat about the problems I had they made some for me to try in their Lab (not cheap) still have not tested it need to do a long run (300+kms) to test it.

Have not looked at the LS yet, not planning to restore it but I will check out the gearbox will let you know when I do.
John

Gannet
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Re: Gear oil and two stroke

Post by Gannet » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:33 am

John,
Thanks for your good feedback on my suggestion for using a V Ring seal. As you say - not a cure, but a big help. Exactly so.

I hope it will encourage others to fit them. It can hardly be cheaper or easier.



Charles,

As the moderator and the man who has to approve any suggested technical changes, do you have a view on the use of V Ring seals?

Jeremy

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