Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

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african imp
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Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

I have just managed to unseize a series 102 engine with the Wipac 2 ignition.
On inspection the engine is near new, I will have most parts in stock to reassemble it into an outboard but there is no carburetor.

Can I use a Villiers carb as in the picture, I would need to make an adaptor to have it fit the inlet pipe.

Any comments please?
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blokewithaboat
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by blokewithaboat »

Seems like a lot of work for very little gain Roy.
I would measure the throat of the villiers and see if it's the same ID as the inlet stub on the 102 cylinder. 2 sizes of villiers carbs that were fitted onto seagulls to be aware of. The smaller size villiers (7/16 i think) was normally found on very early 40 series seagulls and possibly the odd lawn mower engine. The bigger size villiers (1/2 inch i think) was what normally got fitted to the later 64cc seagull 40 series and probably a lot of other applications other than seagulls. There may be other sizes of villiers carbs around with different jetting for other applications, and therein could lie a lot of trouble when it comes to jetting requirements for a 102, so for the sake of keeping things simple i would opt for the normal amal 46n carb for your 102.

There are plenty of used amal 46n 2 jet carbs available via the internet.
This is what i found in less than 5 mins.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seagull-Amal ... SwWdZZYONO
or this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRITISH-SEAG ... 6de:g:mvIA
or this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRITISH-SEAG ... aebe:g:QR8
You get the idea

If all else fails you could also use the later amal 416 if you wanted as these were a direct fit for century's and 102's for when the original carb failed. The main SOS site mentions this also. You can also find them on late model 40 series engines although with a nylon adapter ring inside the flange for a smaller stub as on the 40 series engines.
Just like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAGULL-FORT ... sPageName=
Just remove one of the nylon adapter rings inside the flange to suit the bigger stub fitting and you're good to go.
Might be a different jet size for a 40 series so something else to be wary of. These 416 carbs will also run quite happily with a 10:1 fuel mix too. They're a little more adjustable compared to the older 46n carb but there's not much in it that i've found. I like them and have the odd one or two fitted to some of my 102 "bitsa's". They work good and they're a straight swap with no extra fiddling around to get them to work.



For a more in depth view on carbs, why not ask one of the resident "racers" on here.
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Hugz
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by Hugz »

The century used the villiers, the silver century used the same amal as the 102. Seeing the Century, Silver Century and 102 are similar internally I'm assuming your villiers carb will work fine. Depending on how you modify it your inlet stud component will be longer but that shouldn't present a problem. Keep the barrel original so later you can fit amal.
blokewithaboat
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by blokewithaboat »

Earlier century's with villiers carbs also used slightly different cylinder heads with smaller volume combustion chambers (the one's that the racers usually want for their "high spec" sooper dooper tweeked motors) and sometimes referred to as "high compression" when you see them on fleabay which are different again to silver century variants.


For simplicity's sake i'd still use the tried and tested amal carb. You can't go too far wrong from the engines original design concept that way.

Adding some sort of sleeve to the cylinder stub will add extra length to the inlet runner not to mention any variation in internal bore diameter of the inlet tract unless you could somehow keep a smooth transition between the two. From experience when i used to race small 2 stroke mini bikes air doesn't like moving past or over or around too much of a step for want of a better word, at least not more than a 45 degree angle anyway without some sort of disturbance to air flow. Not sure how the villiers carb would cope with that even if you could get the jetting somewhere near correct. Air flow in an ideal world likes a smooth entry and flow with little to no disruption in its way. I can see an added length of sleeve to allow a villiers carb to fit onto won't be doing much for the 102. Bit asthmatic i can imagine.

But let's not argue, this is Roy's seagull. Let him decide 8)
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fleetingcontact
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by fleetingcontact »

I'm reminded of an old joke...

"Don't let anyone tell you Harleys are crap...find out for yourself..."

The idea is nuts. Totally do it.
Twin Carb Seagull.jpg
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Charles uk
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by Charles uk »

Is that yours? fleeting, I've got one of those, nice hey!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
african imp
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

Guys,

Thanks on the advice you have given.

An Amal two jet carb would be my first choice but given that even John of SOS struggles to supply them and then at what becomes an expensive choice once shipped to Cape Town, RSA, I have to think of other options?

I may start the engine on the smaller Villiers carb and then wait for an Amal 2 yet to appear ?

The Villiers carb I have is a half inch one.
african imp
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

blokewithaboat wrote:Seems like a lot of work for very little gain Roy.
I would measure the throat of the villiers and see if it's the same ID as the inlet stub on the 102 cylinder. 2 sizes of villiers carbs that were fitted onto seagulls to be aware of. The smaller size villiers (7/16 i think) was normally found on very early 40 series seagulls and possibly the odd lawn mower engine. The bigger size villiers (1/2 inch i think) was what normally got fitted to the later 64cc seagull 40 series and probably a lot of other applications other than seagulls. There may be other sizes of villiers carbs around with different jetting for other applications, and therein could lie a lot of trouble when it comes to jetting requirements for a 102, so for the sake of keeping things simple i would opt for the normal amal 46n carb for your 102.

There are plenty of used amal 46n 2 jet carbs available via the internet.
This is what i found in less than 5 mins.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seagull-Amal ... SwWdZZYONO
or this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRITISH-SEAG ... 6de:g:mvIA
or this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRITISH-SEAG ... aebe:g:QR8
You get the idea

If all else fails you could also use the later amal 416 if you wanted as these were a direct fit for century's and 102's for when the original carb failed. The main SOS site mentions this also. You can also find them on late model 40 series engines although with a nylon adapter ring inside the flange for a smaller stub as on the 40 series engines.
Just like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAGULL-FORT ... sPageName=
Just remove one of the nylon adapter rings inside the flange to suit the bigger stub fitting and you're good to go.
Might be a different jet size for a 40 series so something else to be wary of. These 416 carbs will also run quite happily with a 10:1 fuel mix too. They're a little more adjustable compared to the older 46n carb but there's not much in it that i've found. I like them and have the odd one or two fitted to some of my 102 "bitsa's". They work good and they're a straight swap with no extra fiddling around to get them to work.



For a more in depth view on carbs, why not ask one of the resident "racers" on here.
Thanks.

Ebay does not really work for me out here in Cape Town and the end of Africa, the SAPO postal service is no longer reliable, things get lost (stolen) and even whe goods do arrive the cost to import duty plus the Vat escalate the original price.
blokewithaboat
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by blokewithaboat »

How about if we club together and send you a carb to SA.
Would that work?


Come on guys, lets help Roy out here. Someone from the forum must have a spare carb sitting around going spare surely!
tambikeboy
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by tambikeboy »

blokewithaboat wrote:How about if we club together and send you a carb to SA.
Would that work?


Come on guys, lets help Roy out here. Someone from the forum must have a spare carb sitting around going spare surely!
Plenty carbs lying at robertson Cape Town if it wasn't for the corupt postal service .speak to Fred I'm sure he'll help you out. :twisted:
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Hugz
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by Hugz »

Part of the fun of gulls is waiting in a lair for a part to appear and the hunt to procure it. Let's not deny Roy this pleasure, besides I'm waiting to see how it runs with a villiers carb.
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fleetingcontact
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by fleetingcontact »

I seem to recall Cape Town is a port...so contact a UK freight-forwarding company who will include it in a mixed container of other people's stuff for a fraction of the cost of the whole container and ship it on the basis that you collect it in person from the freight office...then buy a crapload of parts from John...

Less likely but possible...

Register with a website called 'Noonsite' and attempt to contact a yacht going your way...people do sail to Cape Town from the UK...the route regained its popularity when the Gulf of Aden became a bit tricky...
african imp
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

blokewithaboat wrote:How about if we club together and send you a carb to SA.
Would that work?


Come on guys, lets help Roy out here. Someone from the forum must have a spare carb sitting around going spare surely!
Thank you that would be a nice gesture!
african imp
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:44 am
Location: Hout Bay

Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

tambikeboy wrote:
blokewithaboat wrote:How about if we club together and send you a carb to SA.
Would that work?


Come on guys, lets help Roy out here. Someone from the forum must have a spare carb sitting around going spare surely!
Plenty carbs lying at robertson Cape Town if it wasn't for the corupt postal service .speak to Fred I'm sure he'll help you out. :twisted:

Yes, I met Fred this past Monday when he visited me to collect the Britania Middy engine I had sold him.


I did ask Fred yesterday can he supply me with an Amal 2 jet carb? he wants rather more than my small pension can afford, so right now I will continue with the Villiers 1/2" carb and untill an Amal 2 jet carb arrives?
african imp
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Re: Will a 102 series run with a smaller Villiers carb?

Post by african imp »

fleetingcontact wrote:I seem to recall Cape Town is a port...so contact a UK freight-forwarding company who will include it in a mixed container of other people's stuff for a fraction of the cost of the whole container and ship it on the basis that you collect it in person from the freight office...then buy a crapload of parts from John...

Less likely but possible...

Register with a website called 'Noonsite' and attempt to contact a yacht going your way...people do sail to Cape Town from the UK...the route regained its popularity when the Gulf of Aden became a bit tricky...
Sounds workable and I am in contact with the OCC ( ocean cruising club ) as I am the port officer for Hout Bay.

The catch is that very few yachts sail South as far as Cape Town, they mainly tend to sail via the Panama Canal and then the Indian Ocean to Durban, which is 1000 miles North of where I live.

So we are talking some years rather than months, the SAPO looks to be working once more and a registered mail item has a good chance of arriving these days :P
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