So when exactly did Marstons stop and BS start?

[charlesp]

In another thread posters are asking 'When did Sunbeamland stop producing engines and British Seagull start producing them?"

When did Marston's sell out to British Seagull

Good question. And one that is extraordinarily difficult to answer. This was not a question on one company going bust and another one buying it out on a fixed date and setting up manufacture in a different premises.

The motors were originally Marstons, as we know. I for one do not know with absolute confidence that they were actually manufactured or assembled at Sunbeamland at all. The first Marston OA was offered for sale in 1931; it had been in development since 1928.

The original Sole British Concessionnaires were Merlyn Motors in Bristol. Merlyn Motors went bust after one of the partners died, and the outboard business survived as the Bristol Motor Boat Company in the Alma Road in Bristol, with Pinniger and Way-Hope as directors.

I have correspondence from Way-Hope dated March 1937 on Bristol Motor Boat Co headed notepaper.

I also have a copy of correspondence from Way-Hope dated April 1938 on British Seagull headed notepaper, with the legend "Incorporating the Bristol Motor Boat Co" and bearing the familiar Seagull logo

I have a copy of an agreement dated 15th July 1938 Pinniger and Way Hope are effectively seen to be selling their interest in the Bristol Motor Boat Co to a newly set up Company known as "The British Seagull Company" whose registered address was the same as the Bristol Motor Boat Co. This agreement refers to agreed earlier sales on 31st December 1937 and on May 5th 1938. The 1937 date appears backdated. I do not have copies of those earlier documents.

The sequence seems to start on December 31st 1937 and ends on July 15th 1938. I have a further copy of a document also dated 15th July 1938 where the share allocation between the two directors is finalised.

The documents relating to the purchase of the outboard manufacturing concern makes no reference to where the products may have been manufactured, but does refer to the interest in the lease on the premises in the Alma Road in Bristol.

Where were the motors made?

Again, difficult.

I have a Marston flyer (printed in two colours on glossy paper by the Kynoch press) dated 1936, which asks that motors needing servicing or other work should be sent to Sunbeamland, and, interestingly, that relevant correspondence should be sent to the Bristol Motor Boat Company. This would imply a close working relationship.

I have correspondence from December 1938 on Headed notepaper which bears the address "Seagull House, Hamilton Road, Hamworthy" which proclaims "Factory - Wolverhampton". The letter refers to servicing and overhaul, and asks that motors should be sent to "The British Seagull Co. Ltd., Horsely Fields, Wolverhampton" but that correspondence should be sent to the Hamilton Road address.

I have further correspondence dated 1939 which refers to the Horsely Fields address.

I have been led to believe on good authority that meant the effective mothballing of the company. It remained in existence until the wartime SN/P and SD/P production started in 1942, although I am told that a motor could be had from them if the customer had good reason, like a fisherman. British Seagull never had a factory that produced every single component. They didn't do castings, nor magnetos. They didn't do carburettors or throttle levers or spark plugs or caps. I know that during the war they occupied premises on the Northern side of Poole's Lifting Bridge, where I am told motors were assembled, and I know that exhausts were manufactured in Verwood from very long lengths of brass tube. Transom brackets were finished there too, after the war, from the castings. I have no idea what became of the premises at Horsely Fields, nor in fact what they were.

Sources are important

Much of the anecdotal material comes from extensive conversations with past Seagull staff, usually elderly of course, over a lengthy period. I have also been privileged to "interrogate" members of Bill Pinniger's family. I have a collection of documents and the correspondence both copy and original. I have tried to be clear about information that is not "proven".

[Keith.P]

That's more detailed than was expected, compared to some other British outboard manufacturers, that's a fair bit of information, where others have none.

[Oyster 49]

Great information. Charles has put a huge amount of time into researching the history of the British Seagull company. Thanks for sharing!

[Hugz]

Amazing research outcome. Many thanks. Paints the picture.

[RickUK]

just to add my thoughts to the picture, though not necessarily relevant to dates etc!

One of John Marstons' sons ~Charles Marston - was set up in Villiers Engineering by his father, initially for the supply of cycle parts. Charles remained in overall charge until the end of the second world war, but early on had appointed one Frank Farrer as M.D. of Villiers, where from the early 1900's they were involved with the development of magnetos (German supply having dried up) and two-stroke engines in the 1920's - two strokes being viewed with much suspicion in the early 1900's)
Villiers was so named as it was on Villiers street in wolverhampton - one of several Sunbeam sites - eg. Sunbeamland on Paul street, all within a mile or so of one another, though I have no idea where the outboards were assembled.

My opinion, as the Marston outboards all had the larger 'Coolie Hat' magneto assemblies marked with the 'JM' serial - maybe Villiers - which was next door to the Upper Villiers Street Sunbeam facility - made the whole power head, if not other parts of the Marston outboard?
Villiers at an early stage had casting, heat treatment and machining facilities, and as a 'for-instance', I had an 1920's Atco Standard lawn mower with a complete Villiers engine and magneto assembly, with the 'Coolie hat 'style of magneto, but not JM numbered.

There was probably a delay or carryover in changing over to uniquely British Seagull sourced parts, and as we know the use of Villers magnetos continued for many years, but was the end of the JM numbered flywheel the start of the changeover process?

Interestingly (or not), between the wars Villiers bought the design of a carburettor from the Mills carburettor Co., which we now recognise as what we call the Villiers carb. as used on Forty pluses, though the majority of the 102 cc engines persevered with Amal carbs except the Century 100 series!?

[headdownarseup]

Staying on topic i thought i'd try to show what Alma Road looks like today seeing as it's where i live and work. Completely changed from the 1930's, but somewhere along this rank of shops is where it all happened for Merlyn Motors. Not very inspiring but a lot has changed in Bristol over the last 50 years. Further along Alma Road and opposite the rank of shops is residential properties, but as far as i can work out the top end of Alma Road with the shops has always been commercial properties, so a high possibility that one of these buildings is where Merlyn Motors traded.

I'm still looking for a few nuggets of interest.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Bon ... -2.6101421

Jon

[charlesp]

Try 87A, that's where the Bristol Motor Boat Co was...

Merlyn Motors address was in Whiteladies Road.

I think you'll find that in 1931 it was a Ford dealership.

As an aside, Hamilton Road in Hamworthy - where "Seagull House" was in 1938 - is just a few hundred yards from where I'm sitting!

[Collector Inspector]

Valuable information indeed from the Green Team !

What interesting reading.

Thank you both and

Regards

BnC

[charlesp]

Interesting points, Rick. I'm pretty sure you're spot on about where the power heads were manufactured.

The relationship with Villiers was a long one. The JM magnetos were the standard fare from 1931 to 1946, then what we strangely call the Mark 1 flat top thereafter. I'm not sure what alternatives there might have been. I've always wondered why the original F in 1949 had that odd little Amal carb at first when the Villiers offering was already available. There seems to have been a desire to stick with Amal for carburettors - even going as far as developing the elusive "Seamal" carburettor.

I know that the relationship between British Seagull and Villiers was important to both parties.

Here' s a presentation piece that Villiers' Board gave to Way-Hope:

The thing is rather nicely put together, and as illustrated it opens out. It has a sectioned coil and polished components.

The plaque is engraved:

To John Way-Hope Esq
With the Compliments of the Directors
The Villiers Engineering Co Ltd

Nice eh?

[Oyster 49]

That’s very nice

[charlesp]

I apologise for the white stain on the table behind it.

In my defence I'm pretty sure it is a genuine seagull product!

[Gannet]

So very interesting. Thank you for all that information. I think that I can appreciate the time and effort that you have spent Charles P, researching this subject. Thank you.

It brought back memories of making many visits to Wolverhampton Die Casting (WDC) company who supplied the organisation I worked for with high pressure aluminium die castings. WDC's factory was if l remember rightly in Graiseley Hill, which is between Villiers St and Marston Rd. Part of their factory, I think I am right in saying, was where the Sunbeam lands speed record car was based or built in the 1920s. I expect Villiers had their own casting dept, but clearly the skill base in the area, in respect of aluminium castings, would have been very useful to Villiers, even if WDC did not actually supply them with castings.
When I used to visit WDC, it was before I became infected with the Seagull disease, and so the significance of the area was lost on me!
Jeremy

[headdownarseup]

That's better, i can see it now.
A different address but definitely Merlyn motors.

Was there more than 1 address for Merlyn Motors?
So far we've got 1 location in Alma Road, 2 different locations in Whiteladies Road which makes 3 so far! I'm confused...

https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6176/617 ... d9ae_b.jpg

[Keith.P]

I think I must have four or five or more copy's of Seagull Marston adds, Even the Twin was Merlyn motors ltd.
Also found some with The seagull outboard motor from 1933 and the Marston seagull from 1935.
This may interest you Charles P.

[charlesp]

Haven't seen that one before Keith.