what oil should i use in my seagull?

[headdownarseup]

I couldn't wait to get out of the "hell hole" i called school. HATED IT. Gives me the shivers just thinking about it now and that was 32 years ago.
I preferred to learn things on my terms, and not have it shoved down my throat every day by fat over weight balding pipe smoking paedophiles.

(sorry, some nasty memories) Thankfully not on a personal level, but to some of my mates at the time.


Moving on then.....


Jon

[Charles uk]

Now there's a way to stop the pain in the arse!

[headdownarseup]

Careful Charles.

This is along the lines of what i'm looking for.
Interesting reading this one for you older guys.

http://www.consumersdigest.com/automoti ... l/view-all

slightly conflicting info here with mention of teflon as an additive.Read the previous link to read more on teflon
http://www.bestcovery.com/best-motor-oil-for-older-cars

The mention of zinc crops up a lot in a lot of debates so far. Still not totally convinced on using an sae30 weight oil designed specifically for 4 stroke automobile engines in any of my vintage seagulls though! (very different characteristics) But again, it's a personal thing to want to break the habit of a lifetime and switch to an "unknown".

Is anything like this what you older guys would use for your gull?
http://www.frost.co.uk/kroon-oil-classi ... litre.html

Not convinced this would be any better or worse than anything else that's readily available though.

Jon

[Charles uk]

Is anyone reading any of this? or is this another solitary pursuit for Jon?

[Nudge]

Im finding it tough to read some of it.... But then again I am not a strong reader.... of speller for that matter. Hands on is me!

[RickUK]

Being one of the 'older guys' alluded to in this chain, with the inference of staid thinking presumably, here is my pennies' worth. Using 'old' mineral oils - eg. Sae 30 etc. - has the effect of reducing the available octane number in the petrol in a given mix - 30 weight oil at 10 -12 % in a two stroke mix effectively reducing the octane value by three numbers, with the more modern oils intended for two stroke applications at a 4% mix reducing the octane number by one.

These figures are totally inconsequential with the low compression of Seagull engines, the only people who might care are anyone running high compression engines.

I use synthetic TWC 3 in all of my engines, on the non-scientific principle that it runs cleaner (much less smoke) than mineral oils, and appears to linger better on bearing surfaces, witnessed when a motor is pulled down.

Rick

[headdownarseup]

I agree Rick.

I must have pulled apart well over 50 of these older seagulls, internal condition upon purchase quite unknown to me.
All manner of what can only be described as CRUD almost everywhere you look. But again, this was the "thinking" of the time to use an oil that was deemed good enough with the basic specs of the engine in mind.

But is it still the right type of oil to be using today what with all the technological advancements that we've seen so far.
As the title of this thread says, "what oil should i use in my seagull".

Anyone who might be a newbee to older seagulls will probably be more than confused by what all the labels mean when they buy a bottle of this stuff and mix it with some petrol and then find out "OH MY GOD, HOW MUCH SMOKE". (now you can see my concerns when someone wants to convert a tired old gull to 25:1 when staying at 10:1 is the better option all round)
Times have definitely changed, and so has everything else including oil.

sae30 weight back in the day might have been all that was available to use for some of you, and of course you will have your opinion or favourite brand of oil that you've always used. It's worked perfectly well so far so why change it? I understand that.
Modern oils by comparison are much better than they ever were, there's no doubting that.


The whole point to all of this was to see from a professional's point of view whether or not using a modern oil in an already high hours/high mileage engine such as a seagull will cause any harm.
I think not. If anything quite the opposite.
True, bearing clearances and a whole list of other ailments will be more of an issue for some engines, and others less so.


So.
What oil should i use in my seagull?

You get what you pay for these days.
Find something you like and stick with it. Most of them are very good at what they do, as long as it says TCW3 on the label that's pretty much all you need to know. The rest is down to personal preference.


I'm sorry i bored you Charles, but i genuinely thought this was a good topic to pursue. Obviously not..... (just weighed a coolie flywheel and a later flat top flywheel and there's quite a difference between the 2. coolie weighs 5.318 lbs and the flat top weighs 4.010 lbs. I think this is just 1 reason why SD cranks and bushes are subjected to a lot of wear, coz they're heavier for starters,there will be other reasons as well and not necessarily anything to do with which type of oil gets used. Just putting it out there to anyone that hasn't fallen asleep reading this)
Again, sorry if i bored you and others.

I'd still like to hear what the rest of you think about this though, and yes the reading is a bit slow going at times.


Jon

[Keith.P]

I can totally understand the reason for using TCW3, if you wish to.
I don't agree with using less of it because it's modern, not that you are saying this, I'm just saying that.

sae30 weight back in the day might have been all that was available to use for some of you,

My info is from my father-in-law, now 85, always had motor cycles, then Morgan's and still sails his laser, swims, with some cross country cycling thrown in, started of as a mechanic and retired a tool maker.
That was the point Jon, sae30 was it, no one had 2-stroke oil at all, just sae30 oil, would you say that the CRUD found in the motors you have seen, was reminiscent of most every early motor at the time, having to have the head off and de-coked, I'm not old enough to know the old days, you would have to ask Charles about that.
I suppose if the Seagull outboard had improved its design over the years to a much more modern motor, then I could see the point of this debate, but the Seagull pretty much stayed true to its original 1930's concept.

[Oyster 49]

I've yet to see a seagull, or any two stroke engine for that matter that is not full of crud. Nature of the beast.these are simple low tune engines designed to run forevever with basic oil mix. As long as there is some oil approx the correct mix then they will put put along for as long as you want.

Nice to hear your father in law is still doing well Keith. Hope I'm still doing all that at his age

[headdownarseup]

The CRUD i found was more than likely a carbonised by-product(black and sooty, sometimes a bit crumbly) probably from straight mineral oil useage.The combustion chamber of a lot of really old post war 102's were full of the stuff including the crankcases, the exhaust tubes on a couple of them were almost blocked right up almost to the point you couldn't see through it any more. That's how badly blocked up some of them were, despite all the manuals saying there's no need to de-coke any more. Which got me thinking a bit more about this and led to this topic.

I've just completed yet another strip and rebuild for a work colleague. He's got a 40 plus (sjp) made in 64 which had very similar things going on inside it. Black and sooty deposits everywhere,some of it quite thick too, badly bunged up exhaust tube and so on, dodgy ignition, all the usual suspects. Mind you, this motor had sat in a shed for over 30 years before i got to it, so maybe these black deposits are the aftermath of what using straight oils might look like now. It's still running the original fuel/oil mix as per what BS recommends, (i never stray from this) only this time around with semi-synth oil going through it. It runs faultless. Purrs like a kitten.

The last cylinder head i worked on came off a 1.6 capri probably over 25 years ago now.Customer was complaining of high oil consumption and excessive smoke everywhere they drove the car (valve stem oil seals if i remember rightly) But even then there was still heavy carbon build up despite having all the necessary modifications to allow that engine to run on unleaded fuel. I remember this old capri dated from the 70's which would explain why it had been "modified" just to keep it running for a bit longer.These days apart from the odd blown or leaky head gasket nobody is really doing much engine work these days now. Gearboxes and clutches yes, engines no not really. If you've got a blown engine these days it's far easier to go online to a specialist breakers and buy a second hand engine from a written off car. Plenty out there and sometimes it works out cheaper to do it this way rather than rebuilding a faulty unit.


Jon

[Keith.P]

Nice to hear your father in law is still doing well Keith. Hope I'm still doing all that at his age.

I appreciate that.
That is one person I do like to listen to, he worked on Lancaster's, servicing the merlin engines, had a job when tool making, to make the tooling for the Ford Wessex engine rockers, he didn't think much of it and resigned it, it got used in every engine.
Listen because one day it will be lost, that my view.
Sorry Jon, back to oils.

[headdownarseup]

Has anybody actually bothered to read any of their old seagull manuals yet?

It makes for some interesting reading at times. If anyone's interested i can post a scan of some of these a bit later. Some pretty sound advice in there too, some of which gets ignored at times i feel.

I've got 3 old manuals in front of me right now, all saying pretty much the same things in respect of NOT REDUCING the amount of oil mixed into fuel. Fair enough... that same logic stands true today.

There's mention in 1 of them, not quite sure when this manual was printed as it corresponds to a lot of the square block engines in this one, so probably late 50's early 60's i guess, but there's 3 grades of oil that's recommended in gull engines. Sae 20 sae30 OR sae40. (yes Charles, i know sae20 is a bit thinner than sae30, but it says so right here in these manuals what was the acceptable lubricant to use back then)
A 20 weight seems to be the norm today though.

In an earlier one i have (possibly from 48) there's mention of 40 grade oil. That's a fairly thick oil by today's standard. (just by chance i'm going to see if there's still a demand for this anywhere in the world)

In another one there's mention of the 3 grades again, 20,30 or 40 weight. All mineral types at this stage, with reference to castor oils (racing oils) NOT TO BE USED under any circumstances. In the same manual there's reference to what was described as "compounded" (probably blended) and high detergent lubricants are NOT recommended. (funny how things have changed now though isn't it)

If you've gone through some of the posting from earlier, the oil companies must have been analysing oils strengths and weaknesses (in terms of engine wear etc.) and whatever laboratory tests that were commissioned as far back as the late 40's early 50's. Not long after ww2 there was a real need for drastic improvement in oils. The "jet age" was in full flight, the "space race" was in its infancy,the automobile industry was making steady improvements all the time,and all of this "competition" led to a major improvement all culminating in what we see today. But to those that maybe aren't as mechanically minded when it comes to their outboards , some newbies perhaps to seagulling, there's often some mistakes that are easily made. This is purely from what i've observed over the last ten years or so, and of course is my opinion, so apologies in advance if i've upset anybody with this.

Here goes nothing.
Converting an already tired and perhaps fragile gull engine so that it conforms to the modern way of thinking (less polluting) isn't always the right thing to do in my view. 25:1 fuel mixes that are trying to cope with slack crank bushes or worn cylinders/rings etc. can only end up going one way. EVEN MORE WEAR. Yes there is a selection of brand new spare parts still available today for rebuilding purposes, but not everybody that's new to seagulls will have the time or money or even the necessary skills to carry out all that's required in that rebuilding process. You can have the most expensive oil out there that says it protects your engine forever and a day etc. etc. If it's got worn/slack crank bushes (a lot of them probably have by now anyway) for the sake of at least reducing how much further wear is going to take place, (and to those less mechanically or financially able) keep the 10:1 ratio going for as long as possible. There's more oil to start with to find its way into all the nooks and crannies, it's made from a better formulation than years ago, it's tried and very well tested, and more importantly it's exactly what the engine manufacturer recommended in the first place. More oil is better than less oil. Period.
After 78 things change again with gulls oiling requirements, although by now the oil has improved enormously as well. These little gull engines we love so much are fairly tough and robust, but for how much longer as we can't save all of them! Most of us that have an understanding about these little gems will use them sparingly. Some of us use our gulls more than others.(the longer the better i say) Some of us have a more delicate touch than others. Some of us have the aptitude to be able to stretch the boundaries of this original technology and go racing with it. And unfortunately some of us haven't got a clue. Here's a thing though, if a decent semi-synth oil had been available back in the 1930's and technology had advanced much quicker than it already has, how many more vintage gulls might still survive today in better condition? Oil plays such a big part in any engines life expectancy. It's just a shame that some people see it as a boring subject and not worth bothering with.(not directed at anyone in particular)
There, i've said it now

For the record,during ww2 my grandfather on my dad's side was one of a handful of gentlemen that were qualified to be able to work on automatic transmissions for the american staff cars and some of the big-wigs limousines in the RAF. My other grandfather on my mum's side was a gas/oil fitter working in the docks around London. He unfortunately got bombed out 3 times on 3 separate occasions and still survived. He was always quite proud of that fact. My father-in-law also spent some of his younger years in the late 50's early 60's with oil under his fingernails. A bit like me.... head down arse up under a car bonnet somewhere.

If there's anyone kind enough that might have a seagull manual from e.g the 70's or 80's it would be good to see what British Seagull was recommending back then when it came to 2stroke oil. Were there any specific brands mentioned? What about the viscosity ratings too?

I find this stuff about oil quite interesting even if some of you don't. I'm not quite so sure yet with some of the elders, mixed views i think.

Jon

[pat777]

Light grade engine oil for two strokes

Seagull two stroke oil

B.P. Super Outboard Motor Oil
Castrol TT
Duckhams Outboard Oil
Esso Aquaglide
Finamix
Mobilmix TT
Shell Outboard Motor Oil
Texaco Motor Oil 2T

Any oil made to BIA TCW Specification

Multi-viscosity lubricants such as SAE 20W-50 are NOT suitable.

The oil should be mixed in a ratio of one part oil to 25 parts petrol(4% oil) in a separate clean container.

The oil proportion must not be cut below this irrespective of the claims made for some lubricants.

[Hugz]

Wow, I read the whole of Jon's last post. But then l am a bit of a captive audience seeing l'm in hospital after being bit by a dog. Mad English dog no doubt ha ha ha.

Keep the entertainment coming. The nurses are keeping away from me

[Keith.P]

That sounds terrible Hugo, hows the dog?