Villiers Coils

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Oyster 49
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Oyster 49 »

For anyone planning on buying a JM/coolie hat coil DONT buy one of the £65 ones!
When i bought one all i go was a MK1 flattop coil with some space ring thing on both ends!
I strongly suggest you do what Hugo shows in his video.
Er, wrong and poor advice actually. The parts you have are fine and reasonably correct.

Yes we know all about this. The spacers are to allow a correct size coil, but with a thinner inner core diameter to be fitted. I have the same coil on my SD supplied by Villiers Parts.

The coil Hugo is fitting in his video is much smaller, than the standard one for a Coolie hat magneto.

Jeremy's original question was around fitting a smaller and cheaper replacement to a 40 series magneto.. I think these replacements are for a BSA Bantam, which had a Villiers engine of course.
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Hugz
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Hugz »

seagull101 wrote:For anyone planning on buying a JM/coolie hat coil DONT buy one of the £65 ones!
When i bought one all i go was a MK1 flattop coil with some space ring thing on both ends!
I strongly suggest you do what Hugo shows in his video.Jacob
Did you get that from VilliersParts? There is a coil out there sold by another company that has the length and is a 9/16th core ie a perfect replica.
Gannet
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Gannet »

My local motorcycle shop has an M1361and so after a quick trial confirmation fit, I plan to buy one and see how it goes.
My life's priority is first to go on holiday for a couple of weeks from tomorrow (non boating holiday unfortunately!), so Seagull coil work will have to wait. But I will report back on the success or otherwise.

Jeremy








































9
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seagull101
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by seagull101 »

Hugz wrote:
seagull101 wrote:For anyone planning on buying a JM/coolie hat coil DONT buy one of the £65 ones!
When i bought one all i go was a MK1 flattop coil with some space ring thing on both ends!
I strongly suggest you do what Hugo shows in his video.Jacob
Did you get that from VilliersParts? There is a coil out there sold by another company that has the length and is a 9/16th core ie a perfect replica.
Yep got it from here:
http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php ... ucts_id=30
Gannet
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Gannet »

I have finally got around to finishing the restoration/refurbishment of FV5141 and have fitted the cheaper and shorter M1361 Coil.

As planned I filed grooves on each end of the core, so that the longer 2BA set screws that I used would fit into these grooves for longitudinal and rotational security of the coil. These screws were loctited into position. Additionally nylon washers were used between each end of the coil and the pole pieces to create a snug fit. The pole pieces were the type used in the very early FVs, having been drilled and tapped 2BA from the top rather from underneath. This made the fitment after the filing of the core quicker and easier. A small copper pad was soldered to the HT connection.
The engine starts and runs well, although I have not had an opportunity to run it on a dinghy yet. I hope to do that in January, although I do not expect any problem and I anticipate that the reliability would be the same as for the original coil.

Is this the best solution to the problem of a failed Villiers coil and a non functional series 40 engine? The answer is clearly No.
The best solution is to purchase the correct M1634 coil at £65 instead of this cheaper M1361 at £24. Other M1361 coils are available at a slightly higher cost. I do not know to compare the quality of these different coils. Perhaps the more expensive ones are better....

I put great store in originality and so will probably not repeat this type of repair again. But if saving £40 enables a static non functional engine to be made into an engine that can be used reliably, then clearly it is a serious option.

Jeremy
headdownarseup
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by headdownarseup »

Here here. :P

Nothing wrong in my book with finding a more "affordable" option. There must be plenty of other seagullers all over the world faced with the same situations.
Let's face it, villiers coils are dropping like flies these days and as you say it brings another once static motor back to life.

Nice work Jeremy, i'll have a look the next time i'm over.

Jon
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flyguy
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by flyguy »

Did you get that from VilliersParts? There is a coil out there sold by another company that has the length and is a 9/16th core ie a perfect replica.[/quote]
Hi, any more info on this replica, might be useful in future
1965 40 - 1990 55 - 1954 - Little Forty -1986 EF
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Charles uk
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Charles uk »

Before rushing out & buying one of these, wouldn't it be better for Jeremy to give his a long term hammering/test first & see what he thinks after 24 hours use?

Jacob so you bought what you were told was a M1030 x16, from Villiers Services & got a M1034 which is a Villiers Mk 1 with top hat bushes.

I hope no one reading this takes it as a criticism of Villiers ignition coils, many of the ones failing, are over 50 years old, hardly cause for complaint!

I doubt Villiers would have lasted as long as they did, building their products bigger than minimum required!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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seagull101
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by seagull101 »

Charles uk wrote:

Jacob so you bought what you were told was a M1016, from Villiers Services & got a M1034 which is a Villiers Mk 1 with top hat bushes.
Arent the JM ones 1030 coils? If they are then i bought a 1030 and got a 1034 with top hats.
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Charles uk
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Charles uk »

Well spotted Jacob that's what happens when you do stuff in the middle of the night from memory (corrected).

The point of the post still remains! this site is here to spread the Gospel of British Seagull, accurately!

The replacement Villiers coil M1030 from Villiers Services is not identical but is a M1034 with caps & costs £84.25 inc P&P & Vat!

I've heard of 2 members of this site that bought these direct from Villiers Services & got 1034's, but as they didn't buy via Ebay, didn't get a refund as the "they work don't they?" rule was applied.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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AusAnzani
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by AusAnzani »

I am not well versed in this regard, but have noticed a variety of Villiers Coils at much better prices on Australian eBay. Item location is generally Narberth, United Kingdom.

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_fro ... l&_sacat=0

Are any of these suitable?

Regards,
Spiro
www.vintageoutboardsaustralia.blogspot.com
Gannet
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Gannet »

Hi Spiro,

The M1361 is the one that l have used. It is not the correct coil for the Villiers magneto on the 40 series engines, but it is a cheaper smaller coil that can be made to fit.
This M1361 coil typically costs about £24 which is about $41AUS. This is very similar to the prices on the e bay page that you high lighted.

Thanks,

Jeremy
Gannet
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Gannet »

FV5141 with the M1361 coil starts well on the first pull. I have yet to give it an extended run. I do not expect any problems, but one never knows . For this reason I cannot recommend this modification at this stage.
I have attached a photo of the installation.

Jeremy
FV5141 fitted with M1361 Villers Coil.jpg
CPomeroy
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by CPomeroy »

I've just recently rewound a villiers coil after stripping back the original windings. Hopefully, with no shellac to go bad and corrode the copper, it should last for longer than the original.

Image

Instead of using silk and shellac, I went with Kapton (polyimide) tape to hold the coil together and insulate the layers of the secondary winding. This is the stuff NASA use on spacecraft (it gives the gold foil the gold colour) and is extremely heat resistant and insulating. It should last much longer than the old version.

Image

The coil was wrapped in brown paper when it was finished, and given four coats of polyurethane varnish, and epoxy sealed around all the holes and gaps to prevent water getting in if the outboard ends up overboard.

Image

I believe this was the very early villiers type coil - the flywheel had four holes in it. It was on a model 102 with a clutch which strangely had no serial number, yet had some plastic fittings. My guess is mid fifties.

Image

Image

The rev counter was a fairly simple arduino program with a LCD and a small roller switch that went over a bump glued to the chuck.
Code is here if anyone fancies building their own. I'm not a coder so this is pretty messy and borrows from a bunch of different places. The arduino was about £5.00 and the LCD was about £4.50 off the internet.

Code: Select all

#include <Wire.h>
#include <LiquidCrystal_I2C.h> // Using version 1.2.1

// The LCD constructor - address shown is 0x27 - may or may not be correct for yours
// Also based on YWRobot LCM1602 IIC V1
LiquidCrystal_I2C lcd(0x27, 2, 1, 0, 4, 5, 6, 7, 3, POSITIVE);

// constants won't change. They're used here to set pin numbers:
const int buttonPin = 2;    // the number of the pushbutton pin

// Variables will change:
int buttonState;             // the current reading from the input pin
int lastButtonState = LOW;   // the previous reading from the input pin
long count = 0;

// the following variables are unsigned longs because the time, measured in
// milliseconds, will quickly become a bigger number than can be stored in an int.
unsigned long lastDebounceTime = 0;  // the last time the output pin was toggled
unsigned long debounceDelay = 10;    // the debounce time; increase if the output flickers

void setup()
{
  Serial.begin(9600);
  pinMode(buttonPin, INPUT);
  lcd.begin(16, 2); // sixteen characters across - 2 lines
  lcd.backlight();
  // first character - 1st line
  lcd.setCursor(0, 0);
  lcd.print("Rev Counter");
  // 8th character - 2nd line
  lcd.setCursor(0, 1);
  lcd.print("Count =");
}


void loop() {
  // read the state of the switch into a local variable:
  int reading = digitalRead(buttonPin);

  // check to see if you just pressed the button
  // (i.e. the input went from LOW to HIGH), and you've waited long enough
  // since the last press to ignore any noise:

  // If the switch changed, due to noise or pressing:
  if (reading != lastButtonState) {
    // reset the debouncing timer
    lastDebounceTime = millis();
  }

  if ((millis() - lastDebounceTime) > debounceDelay)
  {
    // whatever the reading is at, it's been there for longer than the debounce
    // delay, so take it as the actual current state:

    // if the button state has changed:
    if (reading != buttonState) {
      buttonState = reading;
      
      // only toggle the LED if the new button state is HIGH
      if (buttonState == HIGH) {
        count++;
      }
    }
  }
  lcd.setCursor(8, 1);
  lcd.print(count);
  Serial.println(buttonState);
  delay (20);
  // save the reading. Next time through the loop, it'll be the lastButtonState:
  lastButtonState = reading;
}
Image

The wire runs from the spool between two bits of wood screwed together with felt sandwiched between to keep the wire in tension but not prevent it from sliding. This meant I could stop and start the lathe without worrying about having to hold the wire and maybe snap it.

Image

The notes I took to make sure I rebuilt it the same as it was before.

I rewound the coil with 0.8mm wire and 0.15mm wire for primary and secondary windings respectively. I didn't wind to the original numbers of windings, instead winding three layers of primary (same as the original) and then as many layers as I could get from a 50g spool of secondary. I calculated (from 180 turns on the primary) that I needed 18,000 secondary windings, but I ended up with about half of that before I ran out of space and wire. Nevertheless, the coil produces a spark and the outboard runs again.

The total cost of the materials to rewind the coil was £18 for the Kapton tape and wire.
Last edited by CPomeroy on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Charles uk
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Re: Villiers Coils

Post by Charles uk »

Nice bit of work! & it works

Did you measure the output voltage?

You used 38 gauge wire?

Any paper layers?

Total number of secondary turns/layers?

All layers same length?

Spark plug gap?

Max plug gap jumpable?

Well done!
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
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