SD/SDP data sheets

[headdownarseup]

Just putting out some feelers here and certainly not having a go at anybody, so please don't take this at being a rant.
I'd like to know specifically what data you'd like me to try and obtain from these outboards?
Seems there's pm's and discussions going on behind the scenes that i don't know about that perhaps i should. Help me out here...

Currently my 102 data sheets show as much information as i've managed to get from each and every motor (where possible) but often there's large gaps that need filling in. Not my fault with this as often the returning data sheets are left with blank spaces that i'm supposed to guess what goes in the box, and unless these blank spaces are filled ACCURATELY i get it in the ear from "you know who" and a few others besides (shh..)

Same with the wartime sheets.
As it stands at the moment there are currently around 20 entries for SD/SDP motors. For me that's taken nearly 3 years of hard graft and countless hours of emailing back and forth. I think i'm a very long way away from publishing anything yet.

Photos help me a lot, but often owners don't want their engines appearing on here for all to see. I can understand that, so i've resisted the temptation of showing such photos unless i have special permission by its owner to do so.
But there are some of us that will go to any lengths to show as much as possible.

I'm in a go-slow zone with this at the moment and have been for a while, and its about time things got kick-started with a bang.
Without your help none of this would be possible, and i thank each and every one of you that's sent in the information thus far. BUT i still need an awful lot more info if i'm going to get anywhere near publishing something on here.

So my question to you guys is this, exactly what information would you like to see on these engines and i'll do my level best at trying to obtain such information.

I do what i can with this, but without any real direction in which to head i'm just stabbing in the dark.
I've asked Chas if he can shed any light on the whereabouts of any previous research material that was done several years ago. Fingers crossed this should help things along a bit more.

Thanks in advance
Jon

[Keith.P]

It would be nice to know the basics about the 102, the more data you get the more details you can glean from it.
Rather than a data sheet sent to everyone and to be honest I have no interest in filling forms out, so I have said in the past, why not just ask for a picture of either side of a motor with serial number.
Most have a cameras if not mobiles, if its just one picture, then you have something, you can see what it is and you can take as little or as much data from it as you want, or revisit it at a later date, no back and forth with PM's or data sheets.
At the moment I don't think I can even look up the year of any of my SD's, as it stands on John's, and an LS is not a little model 40, but it's been saying that for years. But who am I to call the kettle black.
At the end of the day, without data, you cannot compile anything, all you can do is ask for the information on the motor, if you don't get it it's not that you haven't tried.
Best of luck.

[Hugz]

Well, to be frank I went to some trouble to identify and describe four 102 motors to you on this very forum and then find that three of them appear on your list with correct engine number and blank features. A fourth never appeared at all. I appreciate anyone that goes to the trouble to research and volunteer their time to this worthy cause and I thank you for this but alas after supplying detailed descriptions I find myself not wanting to go to any trouble again. Am I alone on this?

Had I be in England I would happily volunteer to take on this enlightening task. An unused SD in a crate recently surfaced on ebay (still wrapped in greaseproof paper) .... what a great source of data this would have been. Did you sight it?

Personally I would like to see lots of administrative information on the motor concerning WW2 orders, delivery, tender documents, manufacturing process, factory photos etc.

A lot of lovely 102's including SD's have been displayed on facebook, sadly a lot more than on here, have you found the info on those? If not, so much missed information.

If you haven't the time I wouldn't like you to feel stressed about completing this task. Better to wait until there is somebody with more time and perhaps better facilities. Adrian (Oyster) did some marvelous work on the SD registry a few years back.

[NaughtyBits]

Jon,

I'd be happy to provide details (such as they are) on an SD & SDP I've been rebuilding. They weren't complete when I got them, though (and so might not be much help or use), but thanks to Tam, Jan & Charles, I almost have them finished.

Feel free to PM for an email address if you'd like to send the forms through?

Thanks.

[Charles uk]

Does anyone know who ended up with the "boxed SD", I would really like to give it a good looking at, even if it's just to find out if this is a pre or post clean up example, never seen a box before with green on the inside, though I've only seen 3 previously. There is a lot of data in that box!
If the owner reads this, PM me please, this could add a lot more to my education.

Perhaps "before" pictures should be asked for as they contain less current owner influence.

[Oyster 49]

I handed over the SD register to Jon, as I did not have the time to do it, as I was working away a lot. (I'm in Germany at the moment) however that list contained details of maybe 5 engines I had at the time, one I still have. None of these details appeared on the document posted earlier this year. In fact the only engines that had details seemed to be Jons own engines.

We did warn that the task should be limited to SD only as it would be too much info to gather.

[headdownarseup]

Thanks for your input so far gents. I appreciate it.

As far as blank spaces in the lists goes, due to some glitches with the host site a lot of previous pictures went missing. A great shame but it happens. Some of Hugo's data went the same way i'm afraid, although i have managed to go back over a lot of older stuff i have (spread across no less than 3 computers ) and have since re-added to the post-war 102 list some of the missing bits, but sadly there's still some gaps. Sorry Hugo and others.

So now i've got to try and start somewhere at the beginning again with what little i have to hand regarding the SD/SDP types.
Adrian did indeed do some work a few years ago and then handed over the list to me. Since then i've added a further 12 or so motors to the list, but as i've said in the past it's very VERY slow going just to try and get something back that i can work with.
For those that don't already know i only have 1 SD and 1 SDP in my collection just to put the records straight on this. Everything else on the list is from other owners engines and the original list that Adrian had worked on.

I think perhaps i need a more positive and simpler direction in which to head. Pictures, as suggested by Keith, can glean a fair bit of information.

A "before" or "warts and all" picture/s is perhaps a better and more honest source of information as suggested by Chas.

As far as my contacts in the MOD are able, to date there's nothing forthcoming although i keep pestering them to look a bit deeper. You never know. Something might turn up out of the blue.


I tried explaining to Chas. last night that without at least say 50 entries on a list (100 or more would be better in order to see any small detail changes), unless a particular motor has been "got at" by a previous or current owner, the data is only as good as what appears on the outboard at that time. What it would have looked like during WW2 is perhaps something different entirely. (yes i did see the recent SD in the box, i wonder where it went too)
Some of the older documents i have tried to source recently, but it's not generally something i would go out of my way to buy.
I recall a ministry parts list selling for near £50. That's not a cheap purchase for some old musty paperwork, but i do realise the importance of the information it contains. I myself have a 62 version (photocopy) with all the revisions it contains. My thanks to A-J and his mate Ken for that.
If someone would like to send me a photocopy version i'd more than happy to look over it. Indeed anything else that might be lurking. Every little bit helps with this.

So, from now on, NO MORE silly forms to fill out. That's now been binned. Pictures are the way forward and probably easier to store on a computer.

If anyone would like to PM me feel free. I'm quite approachable on a lot of things. I don't bite....honest

Cheers for now
Jon

[Oyster 49]

So how many engines have you logged exactly?

[Hugz]

Things "we" would like to find out.

Magneto nut
Tiller wing nut brass/silver
Clutch lever.... Patent or plain
Copper top or silver
Length of Exhaust pipe. I now believe they were all one length (long) but it is not definitive.
Gearbox... stamped or plain
Engine number
Engine number dotted or not
JM number
If flat top magneto (mk1), the flywheel date
It is possible the very early ones didn't have the ewart tap....
Carbs are all same I think. High Amal lettering
Tank saddles. There is some conjecture that the later ones where not the cast ali ones.
Throttle lever... brass/silver
Throttle cable, braided or otherwise
Fuel pipe all the same... copper
Tank cap: Brass/chrome/ brass & chrome
Tank strap: finish, length of worm drive
Grip... dover type?
Crate??
Transom??
Grease gun??
To be expanded.....

Jon, can you add all your features that need to be listed and we, maybe in someway, be getting a basic format to start from.

This is for SDs not SDPs, I know nought about them but need to be included also we need to include the HSD.

[charlesp]

Charles, even from a photograph I would bet that boxed SD is original. Nice to see one with the bracket included, and the bracket ID welded into it. You're right, of course, there's a lot of information there. One like that is pretty much worth a hundred of the run-of-the-mill ones as far as yielding data.

I have never seen an SD as original as that one, and I think the point about motors being altered, messed about, had bits replaced, over the years is a strong one.

I believe that the SD series will remain a bit of a mystery until someone turns up some original wartime documentation, and I think that's pretty unlikely.

I still have no idea why copper was used for magneto covers. Copper just had to be more valuable than aluminium - after all the country was awash with aluminium, what with all those crashed Luftwaffe aircraft, all those scrapped RAF ones, not to mention the "donate your saucepans" schemes. All we know is roughly how many they made, pretty much what they were, and we know that original unused ones in their box are rare as hens' teeth. What's more I don't think anyone has a wartime parts book (the ones I have seen were fifties examples), even the operating instructions are hard to come by.

Oh, and I agree wholeheartedly about long shaft motors. Those extra few inches can turn a nice thing into an awkward one.

[Hugz]

Some more

[Hugz]

more

Whoops, this one is a ring in, my apologies.

This is a ring in too

Have a look at the height adjuster under the crankcase on drive tube. Looks like the collar from a carb, very interesting.

[Hugz]

more

Note the brass clutch lever has "patent" on it? Late numbered SD. And braided throttle cable.

[Charles uk]

OK I stand corrected!
That looks 100% honest, got to be worth a tank of diesel to have a look.

Who got it? please may I have a look!

[charlesp]

The carb collar1 s indeed what passed for a height adjusting collar back then.

I stand corrected (a bit) about originality - the dates on the outside of the box are not quite 1945!