Spot the problems

[headdownarseup]

Spot on Boyd, there are indeed 3 different types of tiller for 102's.

The first being the type held on with a wing nut, normally fitted to a host of older 102's from the 40's and 50's (SD,SDP,D,C,AD,AC,AHC etc.) up to approx. 55/6
The next type is the brass variant, almost identical to those fitted to 40 series motors of the time. Although by now the crankcase design has changed slightly in the 102's to accomodate such changes. (no wing nut this time, just a castellated nut) I've seen a few motors with a hotchpotch of bits both old and new in this area.

The next version is an all aluminium type, again identical to 40 series motors. (i think 102's are slightly longer in length)
As the years roll by some small detail changes creep in. The tiller that Keith is referring to has a hole within the tiller casting to direct the throttle cable through it. Some folks will often say NOT TO store a motor with it's tiller pointing downwards as it's quite likely the throttle cable will kink within its guide on the tiller. Same with century motors of the time.
Grips change too, as do the throttle levers. Pretty much in line with what's happening with the 40's of the time.
Does this make sense?
Commonality of certain parts throughout the entire range.

I'd be interested to know when you note the change in the 40 series gearboxes from a "holed" water inlet to a "slotted" inlet.
My best guess is around 57.
Am i close?

Jon

[Keith.P]

I'd be interested to know when you note the change in the 40 series gearboxes from a "holed" water inlet to a "slotted" inlet.
My best guess is around 57.
Am i close?

I would say you are.
I have noticed this with the LS motors, from screw on pump housing, to the clamp at the front, to the standardised rear clamp fixing.
Maybe the same time the prop changed to the fan blade type, the box lost its holes, as the round hole gearbox was polished and the slotted one was painted like the prop.

[AusOB_Collector]

by headdownarseup

I'd be interested to know when you note the change in the 40 series gearboxes from a "holed" water inlet to a slotted" inlet.
My best guess is around 57.
Am I close?

Jon,

From my data collection, it seems that SJP and SJM motors under serial #10,000 have the holed water inlet, and after #10,000 they have the slotted inlet. Datewise, the changeover occurred between 1958-1959.

Cheers
BP

[headdownarseup]

Not that far off then Boyd
I have my suspicions with some of these, but for the moment it's all good.

Props wise i think we might be missing something here with the 102's although as yet nothing to back it up with.
I have a theory i'm trying to search out some more on props with 102's in that in between the last of the bowtie props (early to mid 50's) and the start of the hydrofan props (some point in the late 50's to early 60's) there might have been another prop that's not as well known at the moment. A 4 bladed cloverleaf variant. Various photos have been posted over the last year or so showing 2 and 3 bladed versions of what i refer to as a "meatclever" prop. It's possible that many of these 4 bladed cloverleaf props have ended up in the bin having been "upgraded" to a common hydrofan. From some of the 102 motors i've seen over the last few years, particularly with the older ones, a lot of them seem to have a hydrofan prop fitted. Some of you might remember a few months ago i acquired a model C (C.266.) which at the time was wearing such a prop. Now this motor being from the 1940's you'd expect it to have a swept back 2 bladed prop (which it now has thanks to Rick) I seem to remember Chas mentioning something about an explosion of weed problems back in the late 60's and early 70's where a lot of outboards were constantly fouling their props on this stuff. Maybe just maybe the hydrofan prop was introduced to try and combat such problems, and today we see the odd earlier motor (pre 1960 ish) with an unusual later prop fitted to it! Thinking slightly outside the box here i have an LLS from the early 60's which has a 4 bladed cloverleaf prop, clearly stamped with 100 ONLY on it so there's no confusion as to what it was fitted to, so why not the same with the 102's from a slightly earlier period from say mid 50's to around early 60's? From what i can see they're basically the same prop anyway just with a slightly different (smaller) hub for the 102.
Is this starting to make sense slowly?

As for most of the other changes they seem to follow a fairly similar order throughout the range in both 40 and century/102 motors. Holes to slots in the gearboxes, brass tillers to alumium ones, brass exhaust tubes to aluminium ones etc. etc.
Common materials and a few common parts for most motors of that time.


Jon

[AusOB_Collector]

Jon,

Recently here down under I came across a July 1968 102 motor for sale which had the 3-bladed cloverleaf prop fitted. According to the owner, it is exactly original...

Cheers
BP

[Collector Inspector]

Would this 4 blade prop on 102 be the prop in question?

BnC[/color]

[Charles uk]

That is a weed free, Bruce as used on a model 75 or a Curlew, usually found on the (2.5:1) clutched sealed lower unit.

You've got to get out more Jon, there are plenty of the 3 blade (2.5:1)Cloverleafs around & the 4 bladed versions both with 102 cast on the hub!

[headdownarseup]

Well if there really is "that many" around, let's see some pictures please!! Don't keep us all in suspense.

2 and 3 bladed "meatclever" props are fairly well documented.
But my concern is with 4 bladed "cloverleaf" props, not to be confused with anything else. Think of an LS type prop but with a slightly smaller hub.
Let's just try and stick with the topic of 102's for the moment can we please.....



Jon

[Keith.P]

4 bladed "cloverleaf" props.

Do you mean the Old century prop which is marked 100 only.

100 prop.jpg

Or

100a prop.jpg

[Charles uk]

Sorry I can't do pictures Jon.

Almost identical but with 102 on the hub in the same place, Keith.

[headdownarseup]

Yep

Now we're getting somewhere.
Same style of prop but with 102 in the casting.

This 100 ONLY type of prop is what was fitted to 40/century direct drive gearboxes, but i beleive there is a 102 variant almost identical to this but with a smaller hub to fit the 102 gearbox.
This type of prop is what i think fits in between the last of the "Bowtie" props and the start of the more common "hydrofan" prop somewhere towards the late 50's and early 60's.

As mentioned previously there are vast numbers of older motors that have been "upgraded" to a hydrofan prop, possibly years ago as maybe the thinking back then was that this new hydrofan was a better more effecient way of propelling a seagull through the water.
From a purists point of view i still think that the cloverleaf type prop for 102's (if they ever existed that is) is quite an elusive thing to find nowadays still attached to a 102 from this time period. It's possible i guess that many of them might have ended up in the bin in favour of this new type of prop.


Just trying to fill in the blanks (of which there are many)


But you're right Chas, i do need to get out more often


Jon

[Charles uk]

I've just had a look in my prop box, 3 four blades & 2 three blades & perhaps more on motors! (all with 102 on the hub though the 3's have 102W on them).

I think you'll find the 3.5:1 gearbox version has a hub diameter of 68mm & has a little more pitch than the 102 2.5:1 type, which have the big end of the hub with a 53mm diameter on the 4 blade, & the 3 blade 57mm diameter.

PS I'm not fibbing Jon!

[headdownarseup]

Ok , so the 3 bladed props with W on them i refer to as "Meatcleaver" rather than a cloverleaf. (possibly also a "weedfree" type of prop with the letter W as an identifier)
I've got one of them too, straight trailing edge to the blade with a curved leading edge. Pics somewhere of a 2 bladed version as well.

Cloverleaf props appear to have a fairly uniform shape to both leading and trailing edges. Right or wrong? Just like the older LLS prop that Keith posted earlier. (i've got one of them too)

You know my email adress, send me some pics

Jon

[Collector Inspector]

That is a weed free, Bruce as used on a model 75 or a Curlew, usually found on the (2.5:1) clutched sealed lower unit.

Thanks for that aye!

BnC

[Collector Inspector]

Jon?

http://www.britishseagullparts.com/102-1950s.htm

BnC