Hi Jon, We still have room in Harris if you fancy, yes Tam is very kind
I just had a look and it has a spark (Com 8 plug.) I didn't have any fuel so couldn't start it but I have a feeling that with all the help on SOS it shouldn't take a lot to get it going, I am going to start by cleaning the inside of the tank and stripping the carb, fuel line and cleaning them
I will post pics at every stage,
Little Forty
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
Re: Little Forty
1965 40 - 1990 55 - 1954 - Little Forty -1986 EF
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Collector Inspector
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Re: Little Forty
Jon Said:
"Word of advice here.
At some point you will be tempted to take apart the power head to clean out the water ways. You'd be foolish not to. Not as scary as it sounds but you will need a good powerful blow torch to warm up the nuts at the end of each stud holding the cylinder head to the block. Gently does it and don't force anything."
Note Very Well with these Old Dears Aye.
BnC
"Word of advice here.
At some point you will be tempted to take apart the power head to clean out the water ways. You'd be foolish not to. Not as scary as it sounds but you will need a good powerful blow torch to warm up the nuts at the end of each stud holding the cylinder head to the block. Gently does it and don't force anything."
Note Very Well with these Old Dears Aye.
BnC
A chicken is one egg's way of becoming others
Re: Little Forty
That scares the pants off meCollector Inspector wrote:Jon Said:
"Word of advice here.
At some point you will be tempted to take apart the power head to clean out the water ways. You'd be foolish not to. Not as scary as it sounds but you will need a good powerful blow torch to warm up the nuts at the end of each stud holding the cylinder head to the block. Gently does it and don't force anything."
Note Very Well with these Old Dears Aye.
BnC
I got an idea that sometime in the past it had been taken apart, the tube that water travels up (see how much I have got to learn
) seems like it's quite new, the picture here shows what I mean, I hope
1965 40 - 1990 55 - 1954 - Little Forty -1986 EF
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tambikerboy
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Re: Little Forty
nice try batman thats the exhust tube water pipes inside that nice and clean though......I,LL NEVER SMOKE WEED WITH WILLIE AGAIN. ......the party's all over before it begun. ...
Re: Little Forty
I wrote exhaust tube first then changed it
1965 40 - 1990 55 - 1954 - Little Forty -1986 EF
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tambikerboy
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:26 pm
- Location: wherever I park my truck
Re: Little Forty
Those nuts look to be in good shape I'd still use some heat though 
.....
.....I,LL NEVER SMOKE WEED WITH WILLIE AGAIN. ......the party's all over before it begun. ...
Re: Little Forty
I have come a bit late to this post.
I am sure Jon (and others) that your advice about removing the head is very sound. I would just like to ask whether the advantages outway the risks. If the studs turn in the crankcase and rip the possibly soggy aluminium then you have problems. My inclination is to leave that area alone if there is not an obvious problem, until you have used the engine a bit and then decide whether you want to strip the head off. Just a point of view. Things can come apart quite quickly , but take 100 times as long to put back together in a better state than it originally was.
Its a nice looking LS. I took notice of the short throttle cable. I suspect that these early engines originally had these short cables. Also was the bent throttle levers just used on the stub tillers? The levers needed to be bent a bit to clear the grip. The grip on this LS looks in nice order and I am sure the Dover grip is original. I call these Dover grips the 3+6, as they have 3 long grooves and 6 short ones either side of the centre.
Does anybody know what material they are made of? I find it incredible that a 60+ year old bit of plastic (?) which no doubt has been out in the ultra violet survives so well, but bits of modern black plastic fall apart in 2 or 3 years. Somebody suggested to me that it was the amount of carbon black in the mix, but it is probably more complex than that.
Steve, I have added the details of LS25408 to the data list. I will send you a copy when I re-issue it.
If anybody else has got an Early Forty Series, which is not on the list, please pm me.
Jeremy
I am sure Jon (and others) that your advice about removing the head is very sound. I would just like to ask whether the advantages outway the risks. If the studs turn in the crankcase and rip the possibly soggy aluminium then you have problems. My inclination is to leave that area alone if there is not an obvious problem, until you have used the engine a bit and then decide whether you want to strip the head off. Just a point of view. Things can come apart quite quickly , but take 100 times as long to put back together in a better state than it originally was.
Its a nice looking LS. I took notice of the short throttle cable. I suspect that these early engines originally had these short cables. Also was the bent throttle levers just used on the stub tillers? The levers needed to be bent a bit to clear the grip. The grip on this LS looks in nice order and I am sure the Dover grip is original. I call these Dover grips the 3+6, as they have 3 long grooves and 6 short ones either side of the centre.
Does anybody know what material they are made of? I find it incredible that a 60+ year old bit of plastic (?) which no doubt has been out in the ultra violet survives so well, but bits of modern black plastic fall apart in 2 or 3 years. Somebody suggested to me that it was the amount of carbon black in the mix, but it is probably more complex than that.
Steve, I have added the details of LS25408 to the data list. I will send you a copy when I re-issue it.
If anybody else has got an Early Forty Series, which is not on the list, please pm me.
Jeremy
Re: Little Forty
I'd also be inclined to leave the water jacket alone, the much bigger internal volume is much less likely to crud up, and as Jeremy points out if the crankcases have corroded you might just be creating a can of worms.
Once the crankcase has gone as badly as some go the only correct way to repair it would be to have the cases built up by welding and then re-machined to provide a flat face, and new stud holes drilled and tapped..not really cost effective on a £100 engine to be honest.
You can see how much bigger the water jacket is internally on F, FV, FVP and LS engines, hence they don't block up as often.
Here is my FV, fully rebuilt The tiller is now the correct length and has the correct grip too.
Once the crankcase has gone as badly as some go the only correct way to repair it would be to have the cases built up by welding and then re-machined to provide a flat face, and new stud holes drilled and tapped..not really cost effective on a £100 engine to be honest.
You can see how much bigger the water jacket is internally on F, FV, FVP and LS engines, hence they don't block up as often.
Here is my FV, fully rebuilt
The tiller is now the correct length and has the correct grip too.- Attachments
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Re: Little Forty
Here is a good example of a cylinder head weld repair on a classic british bike. The combustion chamber had a broken valve bouncing around, and the result is fabulous!
Same could be done to a little forty crankcase, at a price..
Same could be done to a little forty crankcase, at a price..
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
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Re: Little Forty
Interesting isn't it, i mean other people's points of view.
Strip it--- or don't strip it!
Didn't we cover some things quite a while back with these "little 40's". What i mean is with the gaskets.
Oysters pics show a cylinder that by the looks of things had possibly been apart some time ago. Blue goo all over the faces!
I'm sure that Jeremy might back me up here and say the original build process may have used a thick sticky black adhesive (something along the lines of Bostick) along with steel gaskets at the top and bottom of the cylinder.
This thick sticky black goo really does provide a very good waterproof seal which in turn helps to prevent any corrosion reaching the delicate aluminium crankcases. Looking at Oysters pics again, the crankcase does show some corrosion around a stud. This might have been from a previous rebuild and perhaps not using a good quality sealant against the joint faces. These older 40 series engines don' t seem to like their aluminium parts getting wet for long. Just my observations that's all.
One of my own LS's had a paper gasket at the cylinder base (clearly it had been apart before i got to it) along with a slightly corroded casing where the stud screws into the crankcase. You can guess what was happening can't you! It would run for the first few minutes then grind to a halt as the gasket became too soggy and leaked both air/fuel AND water from the cylinder base
That's why these early 40's with an open waterjacket really should have a steel gasket at the bottom of the cylinder at the very least. Copper at the cylinder head joint is ok. (it's not right but it will run well enough not to cause any problems) I think there are some new metal gaskets somewhere in the UK that A-J had made specially for these engines. I bought a couple of sets and i can tell you they're good. Very good in fact.
From my limited experience with seagulls (mostly with 102's) i've noticed that a lot of "build up" inside the waterways often starts around the entry point into the cylinder where the copper water pipe bolts into the bottom of the block. Similar set up with most of the other seagulls too.
To some extent Jeremy and Oyster are right. Tread carefully with some of these old dears. I go with my gut instinct. If the motor has trouble with passing water then it might be time for a closer look inside. You will only see this when the motor is in the test bin for the first time.
60 + years of use will have taken it's toll, i'm fairly certain of that. Heat is often your best friend in certain situations, case in point with these "through the water jacket" studs/nuts. Take your time with it and dont rush. The last thing you want is for a stud to either break or rip out from its thread in the crankcase. Most of the corrosion you can deal with once the engine is in bits. It's the getting it apart that can be tricky.
All things said and done, they are quite a nice thing to work on and a joy to use on the water. Fairly docile, easy (ish) to start once everything is set up correctly, reasonably quiet compared to the later motors and look the part.
SO, strip it or don't strip. Up to you. See how things go.
But i think they're a nice addition to anyone's collection. They're just that little bit different to the others
Jon
Strip it--- or don't strip it!
Didn't we cover some things quite a while back with these "little 40's". What i mean is with the gaskets.
Oysters pics show a cylinder that by the looks of things had possibly been apart some time ago. Blue goo all over the faces!
I'm sure that Jeremy might back me up here and say the original build process may have used a thick sticky black adhesive (something along the lines of Bostick) along with steel gaskets at the top and bottom of the cylinder.
This thick sticky black goo really does provide a very good waterproof seal which in turn helps to prevent any corrosion reaching the delicate aluminium crankcases. Looking at Oysters pics again, the crankcase does show some corrosion around a stud. This might have been from a previous rebuild and perhaps not using a good quality sealant against the joint faces. These older 40 series engines don' t seem to like their aluminium parts getting wet for long. Just my observations that's all.
One of my own LS's had a paper gasket at the cylinder base (clearly it had been apart before i got to it) along with a slightly corroded casing where the stud screws into the crankcase. You can guess what was happening can't you! It would run for the first few minutes then grind to a halt as the gasket became too soggy and leaked both air/fuel AND water from the cylinder base
That's why these early 40's with an open waterjacket really should have a steel gasket at the bottom of the cylinder at the very least. Copper at the cylinder head joint is ok. (it's not right but it will run well enough not to cause any problems) I think there are some new metal gaskets somewhere in the UK that A-J had made specially for these engines. I bought a couple of sets and i can tell you they're good. Very good in fact.
From my limited experience with seagulls (mostly with 102's) i've noticed that a lot of "build up" inside the waterways often starts around the entry point into the cylinder where the copper water pipe bolts into the bottom of the block. Similar set up with most of the other seagulls too.
To some extent Jeremy and Oyster are right. Tread carefully with some of these old dears. I go with my gut instinct. If the motor has trouble with passing water then it might be time for a closer look inside. You will only see this when the motor is in the test bin for the first time.
60 + years of use will have taken it's toll, i'm fairly certain of that. Heat is often your best friend in certain situations, case in point with these "through the water jacket" studs/nuts. Take your time with it and dont rush. The last thing you want is for a stud to either break or rip out from its thread in the crankcase. Most of the corrosion you can deal with once the engine is in bits. It's the getting it apart that can be tricky.
All things said and done, they are quite a nice thing to work on and a joy to use on the water. Fairly docile, easy (ish) to start once everything is set up correctly, reasonably quiet compared to the later motors and look the part.
SO, strip it or don't strip. Up to you. See how things go.
But i think they're a nice addition to anyone's collection. They're just that little bit different to the others
Jon
Re: Little Forty
Jon,
Thanks for those usual helpful & interesting comments, especially highlighting the main function of the steel plates & goo was to keep the aluminium dry at both ends so that electrolytic corrosion could not then take place. If it does the aluminium becomes the anode with the result that we often see.
Adrian,
Good to see your FV. I assume it is 8222. Could you update me on a few details so that the data listings are accurate. Glad that you have the correct grip fitted now. I asked you about spare grips - well i have obtained a good one, so thanks for yr offer. My FVs are now correct. I would like to know on FV8222:-
1. Filler cap. Short ears narrow slot?
2.Mag cover. Still with an 'In' rather than I believe the correct plain one?
3. Webbed crankcase?
4.Flywheel date?
5. Mag baseplate. Round?
Jeremy
Thanks for those usual helpful & interesting comments, especially highlighting the main function of the steel plates & goo was to keep the aluminium dry at both ends so that electrolytic corrosion could not then take place. If it does the aluminium becomes the anode with the result that we often see.
Adrian,
Good to see your FV. I assume it is 8222. Could you update me on a few details so that the data listings are accurate. Glad that you have the correct grip fitted now. I asked you about spare grips - well i have obtained a good one, so thanks for yr offer. My FVs are now correct. I would like to know on FV8222:-
1. Filler cap. Short ears narrow slot?
2.Mag cover. Still with an 'In' rather than I believe the correct plain one?
3. Webbed crankcase?
4.Flywheel date?
5. Mag baseplate. Round?
Jeremy
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Collector Inspector
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Re: Little Forty
It looks like the head used to have slotted fasteners.....probably from another motor.
What diameter are the studs........they look very fresh...........and long for the different head?
BnC[/color]
BnC[/color]
A chicken is one egg's way of becoming others
Re: Little Forty
Bruce,
The head studs and nuts look quite usual for an FV. What is your thinking about slotted nuts?
Adrian,
Thanks for the info. The filler cap looks like it is the correct short ears & narrow slot early type. I know that you are keen on originality, so if that is the case, would you want to see FV8222 with its original spec plain magneto cover? Or am i just being a complete anorak? If you lift the cover, I would be interested in the flywheel date. Thanks.
Jeremy
The head studs and nuts look quite usual for an FV. What is your thinking about slotted nuts?
Adrian,
Thanks for the info. The filler cap looks like it is the correct short ears & narrow slot early type. I know that you are keen on originality, so if that is the case, would you want to see FV8222 with its original spec plain magneto cover? Or am i just being a complete anorak? If you lift the cover, I would be interested in the flywheel date. Thanks.
Jeremy
Re: Little Forty
Hi Jeremy. I'll look for the flywheel date and let you know. Not sure what to say re the mag cover. I thought the in the world was original! When did that cover start appearing then?