AD 135

[Adrian Dale]

Some photos of AD 135 must be one of the first AD's and may be one of the oldest in existence anyone got an earlier one? so I am very interested to know what every one thinks is original and what's not.
My two penneth; the carb is chocked so that must be a replacement, and I think the fuel pipe was change at the same time but not sure. also the throttle grip, on a closer look, doesn't look to be a Dover but is similar vintage. now the rest?

AJ

[Keith.P]

Not too bad at all, a little TLC will put that right, Nice find.

[Hugz]

The drive shaft has me wondering. Has a threaded hole at the top for a clutch lever (should be blank?) and if it had surly it would be on the port side so that is a peculiarity. Also there looks like a collar on drive shaft. What is it? Plain cover on flywheel is correct. Photo of box? Should be straight out and raked prop with three oil nipples. Two on box and one on water pump housing (I think). Has a late model block with solid welsh plugs. Should be slotted brass. Great having early AD. The earliest I have heard of. Great find!

[Adrian Dale]

Agree the cylinder has been changed and I presume a significant overhaul at the same time. The gearbox is straight out with three nipples. my photo of it is too blurred to make much out.

Re the collar I have no idea hoping for some answers from the wise.

Re the drive shaft I am wondering if that was changed at the same time as the cylinder. Geoff who currently owns in hasn't touched it, it lays in the back of his shed.
AJ

[JERSEYMAN]

Hi AJ, great find, the earliest I have heard of, but I must say, that's the worst set of photos to show a motor that I have seen apart from eBay, I'm not trying to be rude my friend just keen to see the whole motor as I think this is a great find, there's something nice in having an early version of a particular model.

[Adrian Dale]

Ha ha thanks for the complement!! knew I should have stuck with painting

AJ

[headdownarseup]

Would you look at those KNEES!!!!

Well, if you'd like my input here goes.
Cylinder, fuel line,inlet cowl, not 100% sure on the drive tube but looks to have some sort of height adjusting block attached to it (if that's what it is), throttle lever (i'm fairly confident these should have the hex-head bolt right through the top cover and display "amal" within the round cover), the tiller grip, ignition looks to be a later 1/2 rimmed version (unless you can provide some clearer pics A-J) as does the rope winder itself (should really be the smaller diameter aluminium type) it should have a plain mag cover, and the flywheel nut looks to have been replaced at some point.

The lower end as Hugo has pointed out should resemble that of an SDP, ie straight out back exhaust,1 nipple in the pumphousing, 2 nipples in the box, and the 2 bladed swept back prop and NO clutch.
Nice transom bracket on it though, should polish up nicely. Missing the washers on the thumbscrews but that's no biggy.

Some better pics would help a lot though A-J.
Nice find all the same.
The earliest i can do is 1584, although i have the odd 1 on the list which is (i think) a 600 number.
Definitely one to be saved and re-done i think.


Jon

[Hugz]

Early AD may have had the SD style throttle lever. Which ones to the D and C have?

[Adrian Dale]

Just gone through my award wining photos and noted that the shot of the Mag that I think you were commenting on was on a FP rusting beside AD135. That shot was specifically taken to show the grip on AD135 but unfortunately showed mostly FPxxxx, my apologies. no point making life too easy
anyway here is a slightly better one of the Mag it does have the small puller and is rimless.

I agree with all other comments (except the photos! I have won awards for bird photos in the past) Trouble is the motor is 200 kl by road and ferry north of here.

May be worth another trip.

[headdownarseup]

Ok , pics slightly better.

Dont take this as 100% accurate, BUT from what i can see the tank looks like it's been replaced at some point. Some of these earlier AC/AD's have a bayonet fuel cap with a brass tank. (both of my early AD and AC have a bayonet fitting tank/cap, but data still has some blanks in it, so dont take this as gospel for now)
The throttle lever looks like it's from something much later going by the shape of it and the top cover.
The tiller grip might be from a bicycle perhaps.
Small diameter rope pulley looks correct
Flywheel nut is from something later in the villiers production (mid 60's ish)
Inlet cowl you already know.
Has this got a plain mag cover? Pics dont really show this too well!
Still not 100% with the drive tube as to whether there should or shouldn't be a fitting for the clutch pivot. (some do and some dont!!!)
Cylinder has definitely been replaced. Ideally these have a hex-head core plug fitted either side of the waterjacket, but when cylinders are in short supply, fit whatever you can get hold of to keep it running for now. You never know, the correct one might turn up one day from somewhere.

Apart from that, looks pretty good.
Worth saving for sure.

Jon

[Adrian Dale]

Picked up AD135 today so will be able to take better shots and post the data.

AJ

[Adrian Dale]

AD 135 A few notes and observations

On SOS site the last engine in the period 1946/1947 was AC 694. So as the seagull years ran from Jan to Jan we can assume that all engines built prior to Serial number 694 would have been manufactured in 1946?
Is this a correct assumption?
AD 135 on this reading of the records should have been built around the end of 1946 in fact only 559 earlier so surly November or December 1946.
Further, as John (SOS) notes, all the engines and I quote John “” the model codes AC,AD,TD,TC etc. all seem to run together”
Now comes the problem with AD135 the mag fitted to the engine is R16 A10 7.7 reading that code I get July 1947 for the mag production date.
Now I know it’s possible that a new mag has been fitted but to make that change less than one year after purchase seems unlikely. Unless the engine was manufactured in 1946 but no mags were available to BS until later in 1947… plausible in the years after the war when a waiting list for a new car may be up to two years.
AD 4331 manufactured in 1948 has an almost identical mag fitted stamped R63/A61 M12/7 so December 1947 (What is the difference between an R16 A10 and an R63 A61)
And AD19647 again has the same Mag R63/A61 M/10/50 so October 1950
Other anomalies on AD135. The fuel tank is Brass, round ends, heavily plated. And, interestingly the fuel cap connection has the bayonet clips on the outside but is sleeved with a brass thread fitting, soldered in the bayonet entrance and threaded to fit an ally, short lug, brass vet screw, cap. This is not an amateur make over but a professional (factory) modification using up old tanks. Phots show the fitting.
Now the cylinder, There are no core plugs but solid cast risers cut off. The cylinder has no casting marks but is stamped with letter stamps; 2/F2 and 6.7 is this June 1947 or simply 1967. Any one seen similar stamped cylinders. I have about 8, either on engines or on the shelf, none are stamped. All my cylinders on later cylinders of the 60’s have core plug caps similar to a welch plug in appearance and even later engines WD.s of 1973 and 4 have the central fitting carb, so again a different casting.
The carb is probably original and has simply had a later cowl fitted to ease starting.
Plug cap very old dark brown Bakelite marked Seagull
Throttle plain and grip unknown probably a bicycle grip with closed end
Transom mounting all bronze with bronze “v” strut Clamps bent bronze thumb screws and bronze thrust block fitting an aluminium collar. This aluminium collar fits on the drive shaft tube and is a snug fit with the thrust block. It is not positioned correctly at present and appeared to have slipped up the tube where it has seized. I have not seen this part before perhaps on old parts lists?? See photo
The “V” strut support is aluminium.
I attach a few photos to illustrate a few of the anomalies

AJ

[Charles uk]

Now you can start to understand the some of the problems the other Charles & I encountered during our early post War researches, with numbers & dates that defied logic.

Your number would appear to imply exactly what you say, but designing & producing a new cylinder with all the costs that would incur doesn't make much sense when you look at the market, Arthur Bray has access to surplus SD's that only need cleaning up a transom bracket & a service, petrol is rarer than rocking horse droppings, a treat for a child on it's birthday was a fresh egg & there was little or no money for anything that wasn't going to pay for itself.

There is probably more chance of learning more in Australia, as a shipment of outboards from the UK would be advertised in the Melbourne Age or whatever that states newspaper was called, as this was a large investment in local terms, 50 Seagulls costing way more than a house, & would have to be sold asap, & might be available for inspection on their website.
When the Ministry of Supply supply chain, has been fully researched we might have some indication of what Seagull's manufacturing capability was in mid to late 45, in the hope we might be able to shine some light on what went on in the mid to late 1940's.

It's clear that producing a few C's & D's from "scrap" or recycled SD components would be a low cost answer to "what's next?" but having the expense of a new design cylinder would indicate there was no access to Ministry of Supply tooling.

[Nudge]

If the cylinders where sand cast (and I think they would have been) a small change in a casting would not have been a major. If it was die cast, then that is a nother matter all together. The cost of changing a die cast part would be over the top and would take a lot of time. I dont think it would have been die cast as the pouring temps of cast iron is too high for most die casting dies 1,150 to 1,200 °C (2,100 to 2,190 °F)

[Charles uk]

I agree sand cast, 5 or 6 core moulds & 1 external pattern & a batch of new fixtures for the machining, all made by third parties, & then all the testing & possible mods.
New piston & redesigned crankcase, that's not cheap!