Going back to an earlier post about percentages of motors residing down under, just had a quick look at my data sheets and yep, there's quite a few 102's living down under. I wouldn't like to say how many, but certainly a fair few any way.
Jon
The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Moderators: John@sos, charlesp, Charles uk, RickUK, Petergalileo
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headdownarseup
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Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
What sort of percentage do you have logged from down under of the total? Curious.
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Charles uk
- Posts: 4954
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Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Perhaps one of our colonial brethren, could post a summary & a date of the import restrictions that came into force in the 50's/60's to promote Australian home production, that led to all the home grown, lawn mower powered outboards.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Adrian,
Looking through this post, I have realised that I haven't replied to your request for an update to the data list. Apologies. The last issue is dated 17th December 2015. I am in the process of updating - it is in reality a continual process - and hope to reissue it in a few weeks time. Is that ok?
By the way has your FV1580 got a Dover Grip in the style shown in my (and others) photo? I can best describe this Dover Grip as the '3 long and 6 short central grooves' version. Quite a zappy title!!
I am working on the FV/FVP tilting tiller situation, which has a linkage with the extra web in the top crankcase. We have discussed the tiller arrangements and the extra web of your FV3364. By the way, I guess that FV1580 hasn't got this extra web - is that correct?
I now think that the evidence suggests (no stronger than that), that the tilting tiller was possibly/probably never an option on new engines prior to the introduction of the LS, but was certainly sometimes fitted at overhaul/repair. This must have been especially so, when crankcases with tiller stubs were no longer available as spares, as stated in BS literature, after serial no.11000 in late 1952. The use of the ‘T’ suffix appears to be inconsistent. Perhaps, possibly, this was due to which organisation carried out the repair. It would appear that after approx 11000 all FVs had the tilting tiller as standard and the 'T' suffix was not then apparently used.
Jeremy
Looking through this post, I have realised that I haven't replied to your request for an update to the data list. Apologies. The last issue is dated 17th December 2015. I am in the process of updating - it is in reality a continual process - and hope to reissue it in a few weeks time. Is that ok?
By the way has your FV1580 got a Dover Grip in the style shown in my (and others) photo? I can best describe this Dover Grip as the '3 long and 6 short central grooves' version. Quite a zappy title!!
I am working on the FV/FVP tilting tiller situation, which has a linkage with the extra web in the top crankcase. We have discussed the tiller arrangements and the extra web of your FV3364. By the way, I guess that FV1580 hasn't got this extra web - is that correct?
I now think that the evidence suggests (no stronger than that), that the tilting tiller was possibly/probably never an option on new engines prior to the introduction of the LS, but was certainly sometimes fitted at overhaul/repair. This must have been especially so, when crankcases with tiller stubs were no longer available as spares, as stated in BS literature, after serial no.11000 in late 1952. The use of the ‘T’ suffix appears to be inconsistent. Perhaps, possibly, this was due to which organisation carried out the repair. It would appear that after approx 11000 all FVs had the tilting tiller as standard and the 'T' suffix was not then apparently used.
Jeremy
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
I'll check and photo later today Jeremy. FV3364 has that "repaired" stub tiller but the crankcase shows no signs of damage.
Had the hots on file. think they answer the questions
AJ
Had the hots on file. think they answer the questions
AJ
- Attachments
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- FV1580
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- FV3364
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Thanks Adrian,
The photos give all the info that I was seeking.
In respect of grips, the evidence is building up that the DOVER 3+6 grip was the one commonly fitted to the FV and FVP. I suspect, but the evidence is not there (yet) that it was fitted to the Fs at the start. When it was superseded, I do not know. I must collect the data of course, but probably during or the end of the LS production.
We now know that there were at least 3 DOVER grips. I have recorded your LS 24747 as having a DOVER grip. Is it a '3+6' grip? did it come to you with that grip?
Cheers,
Jeremy
The photos give all the info that I was seeking.
In respect of grips, the evidence is building up that the DOVER 3+6 grip was the one commonly fitted to the FV and FVP. I suspect, but the evidence is not there (yet) that it was fitted to the Fs at the start. When it was superseded, I do not know. I must collect the data of course, but probably during or the end of the LS production.
We now know that there were at least 3 DOVER grips. I have recorded your LS 24747 as having a DOVER grip. Is it a '3+6' grip? did it come to you with that grip?
Cheers,
Jeremy
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Oyster
As a rough guess, the data suggests that approx. 20% of recorded 102 motors live down under. Having said that though, most of the frequent members of our forum seem to be from that part of the world anyway. Strange but true...
There are still quite large gaps everywhere, some years dont have anything recorded yet.
I'm hoping that when a certain member gets their head into gear and gets on with filling out my form, some of these gaps will get filled in fairly quickly, and some questions may or may not get answered. Time will tell.
Bear with me on this. Once i have enough information i will make things public and you'll see.
Jon
As a rough guess, the data suggests that approx. 20% of recorded 102 motors live down under. Having said that though, most of the frequent members of our forum seem to be from that part of the world anyway. Strange but true...
There are still quite large gaps everywhere, some years dont have anything recorded yet.
I'm hoping that when a certain member gets their head into gear and gets on with filling out my form, some of these gaps will get filled in fairly quickly, and some questions may or may not get answered. Time will tell.
Bear with me on this. Once i have enough information i will make things public and you'll see.
Jon
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
LS24747 was a complete basket case when I got it, I was just going to rip down for spares... but then she became one of my most pleasing gulls. and yes the dover grip was original as received.
- Attachments
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Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Thanks for the extra info ref LS24747 and the 3+6 Dover Grip. Thanks for sharing the photos. Glad the LS has turned out so well for you.
I have just come back from south Devon with FV3048. Attached are a couple of photos on the estuary. For a small dinghy (8 ft), the FV is a great engine. It pushed my pram dinghy along at 3.6 knots (in a flat calm). The noise level is low enough for my wife to say that it is nice to be able to talk to me. Quite an advantage!!
Jeremy
I have just come back from south Devon with FV3048. Attached are a couple of photos on the estuary. For a small dinghy (8 ft), the FV is a great engine. It pushed my pram dinghy along at 3.6 knots (in a flat calm). The noise level is low enough for my wife to say that it is nice to be able to talk to me. Quite an advantage!!
Jeremy
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
I love seeing these little engines doing what they were designed for and yes they are quiet
AJ
AJ
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
I have generated some notes explaining the information contained in my Data Sheets for the Early Series Forty Models:-
The Early Series Forty Models. F, FV, FVP, LM and LS.
These notes are to assist in understanding the information in the Data Sheet. The columns in the table are headed:-
1. Model.
This consists of F, FV, FVP, LM or LS.
2. Serial Number.
The unique serial number of each engine.
3. Carburettor.
Amal carbs are recoded as A and Villiers as V.
Some of the details of the Villiers are recorded:-
a) Throttle Stop. The two carb tops in the bottom of the photo show the 0.12 spigot which appears to act as a Throttle Stop. It is recorded as TS, or if it is not present as No Throttle Stop, NTS.
b) Hole in Choke. If the choke shutter has an air hole it is recorded as HC or if there is no air hole it is recorded as NHC. In the photo the top shutter is HC.
c) Hole in Bowl. If the float bowl has a drain hole near the top of the bowl as shown in the photo it is recorded as HB and if no hole is present as NHC.
4. Tiller.
The type and length are recorded. Stub tiller as S and tilting tiller as T, followed by the length in inches.
a) Grip. If there is a Dover grip as in the top of the photo, which has 3 full length long grooves and 6 short centrally positioned grooves, it is recorded as DG3+6. Other grips will be recorded as G plus their description. The lower grip in the photo is possibly a later one. It is a lot smoother and has no Dover identification and with 6 shallow grooves, so it is recorded as G 6S.
5. Tank
The photo shows 4 types of tanks. From left to right they are:-
a) Small Round – SR as fitted to F, FV and FVP.
b) Canted Oval – CO for F, FV and FVP. .
c) The early LS oval tank wth the large edge rads of approx. 3/4”.
d) The later LS oval with the smaller edge rads of approx. 7/16”.
The photo shows 4 types of fuel pipes. They are:-
a) In the top right is the Looped Fuel Pipe. Recorded as LFP.
b) In the top left is the metal ‘U’ shaped Fuel Pipe. Recorded as UFP.
c) In the bottom left is the Black Plastic Fuel Pipe. Recoded as PFP(B).
d) In the bottom right hand is the Clear Plastic Fuel Pipe. Recorded as PFP(C).
The photo shows 2 types of Fuel Caps. The slot referred to is the slot in the top of the bleed screw.
a) On the left is the Short Ear Narrow Slot version, in which the slot width is 0.10 and the height of the ears is approx. 0.35. Recorded as SENS.
b) On the right is the Tall Ear Wide Slot version, in which the slot width is 0.12 and the height of the ears is approx. 0.45. Recorded as TEWS.
The 6. Magneto incl Flywheel, 7.Propellor. 8. Transom Bracket. and 9. Miscellaneous. Columns are covered in the next section.
The Early Series Forty Models. F, FV, FVP, LM and LS.
These notes are to assist in understanding the information in the Data Sheet. The columns in the table are headed:-
1. Model.
This consists of F, FV, FVP, LM or LS.
2. Serial Number.
The unique serial number of each engine.
3. Carburettor.
Amal carbs are recoded as A and Villiers as V.
Some of the details of the Villiers are recorded:-
a) Throttle Stop. The two carb tops in the bottom of the photo show the 0.12 spigot which appears to act as a Throttle Stop. It is recorded as TS, or if it is not present as No Throttle Stop, NTS.
b) Hole in Choke. If the choke shutter has an air hole it is recorded as HC or if there is no air hole it is recorded as NHC. In the photo the top shutter is HC.
c) Hole in Bowl. If the float bowl has a drain hole near the top of the bowl as shown in the photo it is recorded as HB and if no hole is present as NHC.
The type and length are recorded. Stub tiller as S and tilting tiller as T, followed by the length in inches.
a) Grip. If there is a Dover grip as in the top of the photo, which has 3 full length long grooves and 6 short centrally positioned grooves, it is recorded as DG3+6. Other grips will be recorded as G plus their description. The lower grip in the photo is possibly a later one. It is a lot smoother and has no Dover identification and with 6 shallow grooves, so it is recorded as G 6S.
The photo shows 4 types of tanks. From left to right they are:-
a) Small Round – SR as fitted to F, FV and FVP.
b) Canted Oval – CO for F, FV and FVP. .
c) The early LS oval tank wth the large edge rads of approx. 3/4”.
d) The later LS oval with the smaller edge rads of approx. 7/16”.
The photo shows 4 types of fuel pipes. They are:-
a) In the top right is the Looped Fuel Pipe. Recorded as LFP.
b) In the top left is the metal ‘U’ shaped Fuel Pipe. Recorded as UFP.
c) In the bottom left is the Black Plastic Fuel Pipe. Recoded as PFP(B).
d) In the bottom right hand is the Clear Plastic Fuel Pipe. Recorded as PFP(C).
The photo shows 2 types of Fuel Caps. The slot referred to is the slot in the top of the bleed screw.
a) On the left is the Short Ear Narrow Slot version, in which the slot width is 0.10 and the height of the ears is approx. 0.35. Recorded as SENS.
b) On the right is the Tall Ear Wide Slot version, in which the slot width is 0.12 and the height of the ears is approx. 0.45. Recorded as TEWS.
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
6. Magneto
The photo shows Magneto Covers and Magneto Baseplates.
a) In the top left is a Plain Cover. Recorded as P.
b) In the top right is a Cover stating ‘The best outboard In the World’. Recorded as In.
c) In the bottom left is the Rimless Baseplate. Recorded as RB.
d) In the bottom right is the Half Rimless Baseplate. Recorded as HRB.
Flywheel
The date of the Flywheel is shown as the last few digits at the end of an ident number, stamped as shown in the bottom of this photo, as a month and year. In this example it is 7 -50 ie July 1950. Recorded as 7/50.
7. Propellor.
The number of blades and their shape are recoded. A three blade Cloverleaf is recorded as 3C.
For the FVP and the LS the number of water inlet holes, which is either 2 or 3 are recoded
8. Transom Bracket.
There were three different types:-
The early 4” plated one on the left with the thumbscrews on approx 2.25”centres. Recorded as 4” P ‘inside’.
The later 4” plated one in the middle with the thumbscrews on approx 3.102 centres. Recorded as 4” P.
The larger 5.4” engaged depth, with a 13/4” opening and the security bar on the port side on the right hand side. Recoded as 5.4”SBPort.
9. Miscellaneous.
This column is used for a variety of different information.
I hope some will find this useful.
Is there a better and/or a quicker way of loading documents onto a post topic?
Jeremy
The photo shows Magneto Covers and Magneto Baseplates.
a) In the top left is a Plain Cover. Recorded as P.
b) In the top right is a Cover stating ‘The best outboard In the World’. Recorded as In.
c) In the bottom left is the Rimless Baseplate. Recorded as RB.
d) In the bottom right is the Half Rimless Baseplate. Recorded as HRB.
Flywheel
The date of the Flywheel is shown as the last few digits at the end of an ident number, stamped as shown in the bottom of this photo, as a month and year. In this example it is 7 -50 ie July 1950. Recorded as 7/50.
The number of blades and their shape are recoded. A three blade Cloverleaf is recorded as 3C.
For the FVP and the LS the number of water inlet holes, which is either 2 or 3 are recoded
8. Transom Bracket.
There were three different types:-
The early 4” plated one on the left with the thumbscrews on approx 2.25”centres. Recorded as 4” P ‘inside’.
The later 4” plated one in the middle with the thumbscrews on approx 3.102 centres. Recorded as 4” P.
The larger 5.4” engaged depth, with a 13/4” opening and the security bar on the port side on the right hand side. Recoded as 5.4”SBPort.
9. Miscellaneous.
This column is used for a variety of different information.
I hope some will find this useful.
Is there a better and/or a quicker way of loading documents onto a post topic?
Jeremy
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headdownarseup
- Posts: 2484
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:26 pm
- Location: bristol
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
A very nice set of pictures there Jeremy.
Helps me at least!
But then i have seen your motors quite a lot.
I'm sure you have your favorites, as i do. (and not always a 102)
Jon
Helps me at least!
But then i have seen your motors quite a lot.
I'm sure you have your favorites, as i do. (and not always a 102)
Jon
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Adrian Dale
- Posts: 758
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:58 am
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Great set of comparative examples. I am downloading them as I do now since losing so much valuable data from the site during the upgrade.
I will revisit my recorded engines to reconfirm the data I have given you.
AJ
I will revisit my recorded engines to reconfirm the data I have given you.
AJ
Re: The Early Series Forty Models. F,Fv,FVP,LS & LM
Jon,
Yes, it helps me as well as confusion sometimes takes over between the ears!
Will give you a call later today.
Adrian,
I will e mail you the document. I plan to send it out with the updated List when i have completed it - hopefully in a few weeks ( i think I said it was a few weeks, a couple of weeks ago!).
Thanks for wanting to reconfirm the data for yr engines. The fuel cap is a new entry,
I hope that yr example would do the same for others. Perhaps you can use some Australian arm twisting, blackmailing or any other kind of persuasion (legal or otherwise) so that i can have information from:-
1. Bruce FV2844 & FVP5846
2. Hugo LS26748 ( or is it LS26743 or is it both?). Apologies if you have already told me.
Jeremy
Yes, it helps me as well as confusion sometimes takes over between the ears!
Will give you a call later today.
Adrian,
I will e mail you the document. I plan to send it out with the updated List when i have completed it - hopefully in a few weeks ( i think I said it was a few weeks, a couple of weeks ago!).
Thanks for wanting to reconfirm the data for yr engines. The fuel cap is a new entry,
I hope that yr example would do the same for others. Perhaps you can use some Australian arm twisting, blackmailing or any other kind of persuasion (legal or otherwise) so that i can have information from:-
1. Bruce FV2844 & FVP5846
2. Hugo LS26748 ( or is it LS26743 or is it both?). Apologies if you have already told me.
Jeremy