Original?

[Oyster 49]

I'd say this is definately original

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/British-Seag ... 1438&rt=nc

[Collector Inspector]

Original by Hook or Crook or.....

Anyway Shape or Form yes.

Sadly I have far too many of these Original ones in the shed.



B

[Charles uk]

Not sure I'd agree about the lack of maintainence thing Jon, certainly in the first 20 years of the motors life.

In 1950 which is about this motors build date, the national average income is £100 PA (Daily Telegraph), the Little model 40 cost £30.00, an AD £45.00, AC £53.00 & an AHC £63.00.

I find it hard to belive that someone would spend more than 6 months wages on an outboard & not look after it, these were the play things of bank managers, doctors, the professional classes & the odd commercial fisherman.

In todays money thats a new small car!

[headdownarseup]

I agree CHARLES, but when you think after 20 years or so of usage, some owners will get bored with it and start looking for something more modern and up to date!

I was suggesting that as a "running repair" carried out many years ago, these "odd gearboxes" (which no longer match the original specification according to the serial number) are the result of "make do and mend" at whatever costs!

The lack of maintenence part would have crept in much later in the motors life, and probably after several owners! Running repairs can take many shapes and forms,and gearbox differences are evidence of this.
Looking at the photos, yes the gearbox is definitely for a 102 model, BUT it is from a later type (probably TC,TD or later) and possibly after 1957/8.


The literature/correspondence from the owner is (conveniently) dated from a similar time period, which would suggest (but not confirmed yet!) that around this time the "holed inlet" was updated to the later style with slots (possibly the same for props as well). Bowtie prop updated to hydrofan.

It makes a lot of sense to me!

"ORIGINAL" yes (and no)
All depends on how critical you want to be.


jon

[headdownarseup]

BRUCE
If i were you, i'd bid on it! (worry about how it gets to you later)
A gearbox will eventually turn up for it, but as is, it's still a useable thing of interest.

jon

[Charles uk]

Jon look up posts by a chap called Blue to see how much abuse these boxes will take, this could be a refurb by Seagull as we don't know when the "R" started, unless your database has give any clues.

[Adrian Dale]

To my knowledge the "R" was only applied at the factory. I cant imagine an Australian motor ever making its way back to Pool, not impossible but extremely unlikely. There must have been many (in all major centres) authorized workshops were a major overhaul could have been carried out. Based on the fact that the owner did contact BS for advice re the prop he was probably quite interested in progress and thus may have changed the box himself.

Also re the early maintenance question, back in 1955 ish' I used to sail/putter about at Waldringfield, Suffolk in a small sail boat replete with Seagull. I remember when we were finished we took the engine back up the hill to my friends garage till the next time so it was probably an FV. I can never remember doing anything much to it, certainly no maintenance of any recognisable kind. And my friend's father, an architect and jaguar owner, was very impracticable, once washing the Jag on the lawn where it became bogged and leaving us kids to dig it out. Happy days!! So don't assume that just because something cost a lot of money it was always well cared for.

AJ

[headdownarseup]

A-J
Thanks for your input. I would agree with the maintenence/interest thing as well.
Some people (as is the case with your jaguar owning friend) dont really care too well for some things. (outboards included)
Some owners can afford to let things "slip" i.e maintenence/servicing especially in the case of an outboard which may only get used a couple of times annually. Now scale things up over several decades and this is what we see today with some of these "barn finds" that come to light.

CHARLES
At the moment there are only 30 entries on my list so far. Too few to make any firm confirmation either way as to what happened when and where!
I did say that this may take a while to accumulate enough data. (its only been a couple of months so far but a lot of progress has been made)

The motor in question, has without doubt, some questionable history behind it.
Mostly correct though. (gearbox aside)
As this is the other side of the world, it is unlikely this particular motor made its way back to POOLE for a refurb! More likely to be a "local" refurb with a modern replacement at that time.

My guesstimate goes something like this
engine manufactured in the early 50's and transported down under with 100's of others (possibly 1000's)
20 odd years of use (some of which could have been hard, coupled with poor or non existant servicing/maintenence)
current owner starts to notice noisey gearbox and thinks "i must get somebody to have a look at it?"
current owner takes motor to garage/workshop/local blacksmith etc.etc.
proprieter then orders "spare parts" (bear in mind we could now be talking 1970's or 1980's at this time) so nearly 30 years on from its date of manufacture.
spare parts arrive in the shape of "later style gearbox"
"refurb" carried out and motor then handed back to current owner who then uses it for another 10 years off and on where it then gets left in a shed to be found some 20 years later etc. etc. etc.
Follow me?

If it were a lot closer, i'd have a bid on it!
They're still my fav's (correct box or not)


jon

[Hugz]

Is the push on plastic fuel line consistent with the age? I thought they were much later.

[Collector Inspector]

Gets one thinking this.

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $160.00
07-Nov-14 19:50:22 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $155.00
07-Nov-14 19:49:30 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $150.00
07-Nov-14 17:31:54 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $145.00
07-Nov-14 17:31:02 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $140.00
07-Nov-14 17:28:34 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $135.00
07-Nov-14 17:28:13 AEDST

Member Id: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) AU $127.00
07-Nov-14 17:27:44 AEDST

Member Id: y***l ( 2071Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) AU $122.00
06-Nov-14 12:57:24 AEDST

Member Id: a***l ( 14Feedback score is 10 to 49) AU $105.00
06-Nov-14 07:13:45 AEDST


Bidder Information
Bidder: r***r ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days)
Feedback: 0% Positive
Item description: Item Title: Vintage British Seagull Outboard 1946-1957
Bids on this item: 7

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 11
Items bid on: 2
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 63% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Could be legit however.

B

[headdownarseup]

Interesting point HUGO.

By the looks, probably a "running repair".
I have seen several older 102's with the remains of what looks like a metal fitting at either end of the fuel line. (similar to this but with longer metal fittings) The bit in the middle could have been some kind of reiforced nylon/rubber hose (very similar to common garden hose, just clear!) and over time this material will obviously degrade and so it gets replaced with something else!
When compared to the modern replacement that is available today (the black plastic/nylon ones) its not a million miles away, although there is an alternative that is slightly different with more of a 90 degree fitting (directly under the float bowl) which is about 2 1/2" long in modern black plastic/nylon. And that one has a "push fit" connector to the tap end.
I would think the "original" fuel pipes COULD have been (i dont want to say should) a choice of either metal (copper or steel and maybe plated) or the metal/nylon type with metal fittings either end.
It makes sense to me that the bit in the middle gets replaced over time whereas the fittings last fairly well.

Still looks good all the same.
You've got to remember, this old bird is 60+ years old.
It's bound to have had some "surgery" over the years

jon

[headdownarseup]

B
that's a bit too technical for me!
But as you say, legit (could be)
I never worry too much about the "ins and outs" when i'm bidding, unless we're talking about BIG DISTANCES involved, as is the case with this motor.
Couriers are an alternative (expensive sometimes i know) unless you fancy a road trip!
I've done this before now to pick up a motor.

Just depends on how keen you are, and how badly you want an early 1950's 102 AC.

JON

[headdownarseup]

SO, anyone from the "family" got this one?

jon

[Adrian Dale]

Still 2 days left... Freight to Tassi quoted at $300 so I am not bidding pity would love an AC. best of British for those left in...

AJ

[Hugz]

ACs seem to be quite hard to find downunder. I have more luck finding SDs (wartime). Would be preferable to find an early AC with the straight out exhaust.

I see 2 brochures sold for au $46 recently

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/British-Seag ... true&rt=nc

item no 351213896738