brussels at it again?

[headdownarseup]

looking through the internet last night i came across some news that brussels might be trying to impose new stricter laws on utility engines like the humble lawn mower,ride on mower,tractors etc.
i wouldn't be at all surprised if they tried to ban the use of any 2 stroke engine.(chain saws,strimmers leaf blowers etc. etc.)
where would that leave us with the dear old seagulls or any old outboard motor come to that unless it's a 4stroke.

thoughts and discussions gents

jon

[Adrian Dale]

grandfathered, like the rest of us Jon

[THCL500J8]

Don't worry fellers, if you send all your older seagulls out to Australia, we will look after them for you.
We can still buy new two stroke outboards here and will be able for a while yet.

Jokes a side, if it happens, maybe you will need to form a vintage seagull owners origination, so motors come under group body, like old tractor, and vintage motorbikes, and very old cars. Nun of these groups engines meet modern EPA requirements, but they still run, and are shown.
So if it come to us being ruled out of existence, move to Australia, or formalize Saving Old Seagulls into a body that represents us all and we all become members. And that becomes our protection for the stupid rule makers. The only danger is we may be linited to when we play with our toys. My club registered car is only allowed so many miles a year, and to approved events, organized by the association, but some is better than nun,

Just my thoughts.

[Keith.P]

They have stopped or are stopping the sale of 2-strokes, but trying to stop people using them is not going to be so easy.
It will not happen, its not so much about 2-strokes, just emissions again, Stihl did came out with the "four mix" motor, a four stroke using 2-stroke oil, plastic camshaft and pretty much gutless, only any good to run a strimmer, wouldn't have the power to run anything else but it gets past the newer emissions.
Like people rushing out to got a more powerful hoover before its too late, I will just carry on using my Kirby classic and Dustette.

[headdownarseup]

i'm not sure they've entirely stopped the sale of 2stroke engines.
definitely scooters/mopeds etc. but not sure with chainsaws and garden machinery.

i agree that all of this revolves around exhaust emissions/pollution.
but come on,have a look at places like korea where they have a lot of smog or even some parts of india where nearly everybody runs around on small motorbikes scooters and tuk tuks (lambretta powered 3 wheel taxis)

i think that a properly set up seagull (or any older 2 stroke outboard) using a good quality 2 stroke oil should be able to run as cleanly and as efficiently as anything else out there.

jon

[Keith.P]

That's the problem 2-stroke petrol engines have never been clean enough or efficient, others like diesel 2-strokes are, but they are not as simple as a Seagull. The 2-stroke is a very simple design and easy to manufacture, so most small engines will be a 2-stroke.
In the future it will be the Hybrids,that will be the problem, all well and good for now until the battery's have to be disposed of, and so it goes on and on.
Don't get me wrong I love my 2-strokes.

[headdownarseup]

i love my 2 strokes as well.
can't get enough of them.

interesting you say about hybrids, i've often wondered about that as well.
i had an old (ish) honda civic come into work the other day. it had according to the badges on it "integrated motor assist". an early version of hybrid.
i asked the chap who owned it whether he's ever had to change the battery (ies) on it. he said he hadn't but he got a price from honda quoting him over £1000 to replace it. its also got a normal 1.5 litre petrol engine (similar to the toyota prius). this car is already over ten years old, and at the moment with the current prices involved with certain hybrids i'm certainly not going to rush out and buy one thats for sure!

on the other hand, i also have a few customers that drive some really old cars on a daily basis like morris minors, mk1 and mk2 ford cortinas. i've even got an old boy that drives a 1950's MG model Y. beautifull things all of them but they run as clean as any modern car with catalytic converters and all the bells and whistles attached.(within reason)
the point being that if any vehicle is correctly maintaned within the manufacturers specification then all is well. its when they're not serviced/maintaned is where the problems start happening.(more of a problem with modern diesel cars/vans)
the quality of the fuel that you put into them has a lot to do with emissions as well. something to do with the additives they put in fuel these days. not such a big problem with the older cars (as long as they've been correctly adjusted/modified to use unleaded fuel)

as you say KEITH, there are limitations with the 2stroke engine in general. a seagull is no different really!
it still has its place though and long may it continue .
i just hope that BRUSSELS sees a bit of sense otherwise we could see an end to our hobby. hopefully not in my lifetime though

jon

[Adrian Dale]

I still believe, like motor vehicles, old equipment will be exempt under a grandfather clause. The argument being that the number of 50year old items make little or no difference in the overall pollution issues. Therefore the drive is to stop manufacture rather than stop use of existing equipment. This means a natural attrition rate due to failure, accidents and lack of spare parts. Also added into the mix may be an optional by back schemes. This is best exampled by Singapore's CPI on cars, which results in 90% (estimated, actual figures are available) of the country's cars being scrapped after 10 years due to the cost of re applying for a new CPI certificate.
In Australia there are no moves afoot to stop the sale of 2stroke engines that I am aware of and certainly all the motorised tools like chain saws are 2strokes. Stilt, perhaps the larges manufacture of this equipment, only sells 2strokes, all now run at 50 to 1 although I did recently buy a post hole digger produced in China (manufacture escapes me) that still requires 25 to 1

On a second point, the main engine, fitted to our Sealegs charter boat is a 150 Evinrude using a metered mix, when at 3200 rpm plus of 300 to 1. These engines are still manufactured for the US and Australian markets but I presume are not available in the UK of Europe? Emissions are claimed to be comparable with the latest 4stroke outboards??

Edit: Just checked my facts; Stilt do now manufacture a 4 stroke chain saw but using a 50 to 1 2 stroke mix and thus dry sump have never seen one in operation
AJ

[Keith.P]

It will probably end up with restrictions so you will not be able to use them on the water any more, like most lakes already do.
Another motor that will be only any good for showing at the odd vintage rally.
That daft thing they did in some old cars, biodegradable wiring loom, except it started degrading faster than they expected it too.

[Adrian Dale]

actually all cars pre war and just after had cloth wiring so in essence it was biodegradable and as it ages quite likely to ignite. However, this is rather moving away from the core subject "Will 2stroke out boards become illegal." It sounds, from your last post Keith, that in some UK lakes, this has already happened so is it the thin end of the wedge?

AJ

[headdownarseup]

interesting points all of these gents.

last time i checked, 2 stroke outboard motors are/were completely banned from some of the major lake systems in the uk.
the main one that springs to mind is lake windermere in the lake district. everyone has to use 4 stroke motors or electric like it or not! (or sail)

interestingly there are a lot of secondhand seagulls coming on to the market from that area because nobody can use them.
i'm not sure i'll have to double check but there might be something similar in parts of SPAIN.

ADRIAN we had something similar in the uk with older cars quite recently whereby the government gave you up to £2000 to go towards a new/newer car.
the idea behind it was to try to get as many of the "old bangers" off the road, basically those types of vehicles that really aren't worth spending money on to keep them going. it seemed to work for a little while (or at least it has to some degree in the south west of the uk) but every now and then i see some right old wrecks turn up out of nowhere.

those of us that live in the uk (and please correct me if i'm wrong) as far as i'm aware it is acceptable to manufacture spare parts for 2 stroke engines of any type but it is illegal to sell complete brand new engines. is that right?

jon

[Charles uk]

I belive 2-strokes are availale but only for racing.

[Adrian Dale]

Interesting, the legislation notes; 2strokes can be used for "commercial use" but not for the tourist industry such as charter boats. But they can be used for rescue vessels. Does racing fall under commercial use? like most legislation there will be many anomalies.

AJ

[headdownarseup]

i guess that time will tell with all of this.

when i was reading the article, i think a lot of attention was drawn to smaller engines i'e lawn mowers (including some of the ride on types) and what might be classed as utility engines (read into that what you will) but i take that as being 2strokes as well. (outboards,chain saws,leaf blowers etc.)

ADRIAN
if as you say "grandfather rights" come into it then we have virtually nothing to worry about.
except maybe that nasty look you might get from the person next to you at the boat ramp!

jon

[fortyplus]

The sale of new conventional 2 stroke outboards has been banned in the USA for quite a few years, I think it was 2006. Unless your motor has a 2006 EPA sticker there are also some places you can't use any other motor, mostly in CA. Direct injection 2 strokes are compliant and popular because they are lighter and have more torque to get things on the plane. Here older 2 strokes are still legal to use, but you are at the mercy of what individual States and lakes even might decide. 2 stroke Jetski's have however been banned from just about everywhere if they are older than 2006.

Who knows what Brussels might decide, to do, but generally the Grandfather ruling is a way to reduce opposition dramatically to any legislation. The reality is that with larger motors most would or have moved to the 4 strokes or direct injection 2 strokes for the better fuel consumption. 2 strokes here seem popular for some in the small motor size where the boat isn't trailered and motors are lifted on and off regularly - there's a keen market for the late model 10-15 hp in particular. As these small motors don't use much fuel any way and most newer boats use a 4 stroke as a kicker, I think to a great extent market forces would resolve most of the issues environmentalists are concerned about. I prefer market solutions to legislation, although sometimes a little push in the right direction can get benefits to the consumer sooner.

Hopefully no one in Brussels has heard of an 8:1 or 10:1 premix ratio or they might have to make a specific exemption.

I've been looking for a new boat recently and would like outboard power, unfortunately in my price range, most seem to have the last of the big 2 strokes fitted. While fuel consumption is an issue, it's not prohibitive with moderate use and sensible cruising speeds. However as these boats are still fairly big dollar investments and replacing a 200+ hp motor would cost more than the boat purchase, I'm reluctant to go the 2 stroke route because if any of the bans get extended, you pretty much end up with a disposable boat - so I'm either going Inboard/Outboard or going to have to spend more or wait until one with a 4 stoke or direct injection 2 stroke comes a long for a bargain price. It's as shame because I actually quite like oil injected 2 strokes (no fuel mixing) for an occasional use boat, because there's less servicing etc. which makes it more of a hook up and go package, which means more time on the water.