Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

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Beagle2
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Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Beagle2 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:39 am

Hello,

I have recently acquired a another engine for restoration. It is a 102 #SD2417L3.

I plan to restore the engine and put it to work on an 15ft (ish) seagoing open boat (not acquired yet). I've always wanted an older one + the copper hat top and the nice brass bits. Although it won't stay polished for long, as I want to put it to regular use next summer.

As you can see from the pics it has a cracked block :( . Jan from the forum is kindly looking for a spare in his collection. However if anyone knows of one please let me know.

Can anyone help me out with a few questions:

Which parts aren't original? I know about the mounting bracket, tank and the prop, but is there anything else major?

Should the fuel line be copper pipe?

What were these engines actually used for in naval service?

Many thanks :D
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40 Minus SJM27515
102 SD2527L3

Beagle2
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Beagle2 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:40 am

The cracked block
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40 Minus SJM27515
102 SD2527L3

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Keith.P
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Keith.P » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:03 am

From what I know, tank's not right, prop, transom, a spark would be helpful.
May have some crank problems, as I can see a washer under ignition plate and copper fuel pipe.
Still some nice parts to work with.

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Collector Inspector
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Collector Inspector » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:28 am

Cracked Block, yes a bit of a worry. In this case I am awaiting the piston to emerge hopefully intact :)

Patience wins out in the end.

B
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Beagle2
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Beagle2 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:47 am

Yes, I noticed the washer under the base plate. What would its purpose be?
40 Minus SJM27515
102 SD2527L3

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Collector Inspector
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Collector Inspector » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:05 am

Up and down play of flywheel.......................The bottom crank bush is having a hard time?

The timing detent in the upper case casting having an issue?

One of them or both..............Old motor so anything possible.

B
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skyetoyman
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by skyetoyman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:17 am

Tank brackets looked odd in first pictures.
Cracked block is probably down to running in sea water (so beware the wrath of this forum)
I was told they were used to position pontoons
Cannot ask my Grandfather as he is long gone
(RSM in REME)
Below on a Pontoon Bridge across the Rhine c1946

ww2_grandad.jpg
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LLS c 1961 on a crescent 42 boat c 1980 + wspcl c 1976 + 102 SD8561 c 1944 + 102 ACR 1948

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Keith.P
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Keith.P » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:27 am

You are not going to know anything until you pull it apart, It could have more washers under the flywheel, I have seen this on a Seagull before, trying to loose the end float on the crank.

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Oyster 49
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Oyster 49 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:56 am

Nice project, I have a restored one just like that, and another in the queue :D I also have just finished another that I am selling.

To make it original and correct, you will need a steel bayonet tank and cap, copper fuel line, which you can make up yourself, all materials are available. Nice brass carb, not many of those about. Nice bronze clutch lever, again hard to find. Nearest transom bracket is the all bronze one with bent over screws. You should also have the brass trumpet inlet which did not appear on later . You have the right throttle lever, they are hard to find. You may have to buy other engines to get the parts you need, I had to 8)

The block has cracked because of corrosion from within the waterways, which has bubbled up in the waterway, eventually cracking it. I would not recommend salt water use! If you must I personally would fit a later 102 block.
Salt water will kill a rare engine just hitting it's 70th birthday, buy a later 102 for £50 for regular use in salt water and cherish this one. It's reasonably rare and quite collectible. Some would say the most collectible and desired seagull :D because of the shiny bits..

I think around 10% of the SDs had the brass and copper bits, and it is not proven if the theory that these were navy engines is true.

Strip it down and see what it is like, it is likely that the coil will be dodgy, as they suffer from internal corrosion. Replacements are available, and other spares are available.

Post lots of pics, we like those, and lots of advice is available here. Loads of fun :D

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charlesp
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by charlesp » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:28 pm

There is no evidence at all that the Navy ever bought any Seagulls. Not the Royal Navy or any other navy. The business about copper magneto covers and the rest is pure conjecture without any reference to support it.

I personally believe that our own Royal Navy would have had no use for a small outboard.

Copper covers and brass (ie unplated) carburettor bodies have tended to surface on earlier models, but no serious work has been done on the subject. The trumpet air intake was almost certainly standard on all the SD motors, the patent air intake shroud that is so common was patented late in the war and appears on D and C models and later.

As supplied to the forces I don't believe there was such a thing as a standard bracket - much more likely thast they were used with a variety of mounts each specifically designed for and fitted to a particular type of assault boat or pontoon. Have a search on here for various illustrations.

I also don't believe these were ever shiny as issued, merely plain brass tube as it left the manufacturers or plain copper as pressed. The shiny ones are worth avoiding, they've been polished up by later (and much more recent) owners. Most probably spent their lives painted Army green.

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Charles uk
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Charles uk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:28 pm

None of the coolie hat flywheel ignitions had a location detent to my knowledge.

The washer was probably an owner that thought it had too much crankshaft end float, they all seem to have a lot.

The other Charles & myself have seen no evidence that the Navy ever owned an SD, unless someone knows better.

Until we find a willing volunteer, who has the time to run the SD register we won't know if all the "naval" SDs show signs of being part of the same batch of serial numbers/ JM numbers. From the little I remember they all seem to be early serial numbers, so could have been the manufacturers testing various materials to find the lowest cost route to producing a total of 10 thousand of them.

The other Charles is the only person who's done any of the research to establish weather British Seagull even had a machine shop during these pre & wartime years or did they just simplify the Marston design to lower the production costs & sourced their parts from sub-contractors.

Post war it wasn't until the end of the Cs & Ds which were Seagull using up the last of their stock of SD parts & designing & trialing their lower cost new style components that lead to the advent AD & the AC, which is the Seagull 102 as we know it.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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charlesp
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by charlesp » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:06 pm

Not sure about the C and D models, Charles. I have 2 C's - both came with flat magnetos and patent air intakes. I'm pretty sure somewhere I have an advert dated 1946. I'll attempt to dig it out when I get a few minutes to myself. That's not for a few days at least..

..The weekend saw huge family crises for both my son and my daughter, either of which would classify as horrendous. Today has seen the ex-wife in the house, I'm looking after my grandson, and awaiting a call from the Police...

Tomorrow I have to present myself at Bournemouth Hospital for an operation whose severity is small but whose location is scary, with a likely painful and inconvenient convalescence. Toady I am supposed to be relaxing and keeping my blood pressure low.

To cap it all the dog was almost mobbed by a crush of young women at the Jubilee street party. Each wanted to take the little thing away to show her friends, and every one of those girls fondled and patted the animal in a frenzy of puppy love that you just wouldn't believe. Unfortunately this was after the barbecue, with all those greasy fingers slick with the beefburgers and the like, and Bailey ended up with a greasy head which displayed unsightly rat-tails. The Current Primary Woman wasn't thrilled, so yesterday while she was at work I attempted in my ham-handed male way to put matters to rights with a sort of doggy shampoo style preparation that cost the same as a small Mediterranean island.

The dog now has dreadlocks. I shall not post a photo. As he starts his training tomorrow I have engaged an agent - the animal is obviously destined for Pudsey-style stardom - and he has forbidden unauthorised publicity.

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Charles uk
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Charles uk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:48 pm

Well we have lots of Cs & D's with SD lower units & props.

Mine, D 701, SD lower unit & prop straight out the back exhaust, Brass tank, bayonet cap & coolie hat ignition.
Keith's, D1208L, SD lower unit & prop straight out the back exhaust, Brass tank, bayonet cap & coolie hat ignition.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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charlesp
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by charlesp » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:00 pm

I think we have to remember that many of these motors have lived through an era when people were much more 'machinery aware', and sometimes I think that what you're describing may be a 'bitsa' put together decades ago.

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Charles uk
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Re: Unrestored 102 SD (Naval?)

Post by Charles uk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:29 pm

I agree Charles that's entirely possible, but we've already agreed that the ignition is one of the more fragile components of these outboards, my view is that on the balance of probability it's less likley that a later ignition failed & was replaced by an earlier one.

I think it's far more likley that Seagull were trying to establish a viable business in the early post war years by clearing their shelves of war time parts that could be built into fishing motors & sold that a large percentage of had already been paid for so they could invest in some of the surplus wartime lathes & machinery essential to their post war plans.

Did you ever establish if Seagull themselves did any of the machining on any of the SD component or was it all done by subcontractors who just delivered finished parts ready for assembly.
Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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