Hi guys i have to move my folkboat using trusty 102 bitsa fitted with later good ratio gearbox and large barge pusher prop.
a trip of aprox 50 miles next year will be done in good calm weather
now assuming no tide ...
first how dy think if will cope as boat is 25 foot?
and secondly any idea how much fuel it would take?
would probably run at 3/4 throttle....or is it ok to run at full all day long on seagulls?
ok any thoughts?
petrol consumption?
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timberman2004
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:11 pm
- Location: Lerryn Cornwall
Once started and warm I tend to see the throttle as an on / off switch ...
seagulls being the rather lo-tech things that they are, seem to to be quite happy being run quite hard
for what it's worth, I've run mine up and down the Thames 'flat tack' and inter-island movements down in the Scillies similarly so
seagulls being the rather lo-tech things that they are, seem to to be quite happy being run quite hard
for what it's worth, I've run mine up and down the Thames 'flat tack' and inter-island movements down in the Scillies similarly so
Neal...errrr... an ON, OP, 2xSD, F, 3xSJP, LLS, 2xFV, FVP, FPC, CPC WPCL, WSC, and a few eggs hatching, hopefully
fuel consumption
Mine use about 2 litres/hr. running at about 3/4 throttle 75% of the time and full throttle 25% of the time, usually 1-2 knots contrary current and often contrary wind of 10-20 knots 40% of the trip [back into the harbour] the boat has a shallow vee bottom, fin keel, and spade rudder. 19ft waterline and weight of approx. 2200 lbs. Doesn't seem to be much difference in fuel use between the two centuries, one with the huge 5 blade prop., one with the 9.5" 5 blade, and a 102 bitsa with the 8.5" 2 blade bow tie prop. and the 12/30 gearbox. I usually run about an hour and 1/4, fish for awhile and run back, maybe 1/2 a liter left in the 4.5 liter tank. The distance out is about 3.1 nautical miles. All of the motors run on 25:1 The second motor is direct drive the others clutch models. Hope that's some help
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pistnbroke
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:06 pm
- Location:
Personally I think you are crazy to try ..you will be a liabiliy to shipping and a danger to yourself ..how fast do you think you will go ?? 2-3 knots for 50 miles ..thats going to take about 18 hours ....If you get tide or wind you are going backwards ...plain crazy
Beg borrow or steal the biggest outboard you can ..say 30 hp or get a tow and dont put the lives of those who have to rescue you at risk.
Now that should wind a few of you up !!
Beg borrow or steal the biggest outboard you can ..say 30 hp or get a tow and dont put the lives of those who have to rescue you at risk.
Now that should wind a few of you up !!
I'm going to assume you're going to plan your passage properly!
I am sure that you can run a Seagull for as long as you like on full throttle, 'keep it buzzing' is advice I'm certain I've read in company literature. The only constraint is one of common sense and fuel consumption. See what the boat/engine combination is happy with, and don't run any more throttle than that. You don't want to spend all that money on cavitation, but with a barge pusher you should be OK.
Funny, isn't it, that under sail a constant 3 or 4 knots is acceptable on passage, whereas some will see it as disastrous with auxiliary power.
I don't know where you're based, Niander, and I don't know where you're planning to travel from or to, but if you're around Poole and would like the loan of another motor as backup then PM me and we'll arrange it.
As a matter of interest, where will you be sailing?
I am sure that you can run a Seagull for as long as you like on full throttle, 'keep it buzzing' is advice I'm certain I've read in company literature. The only constraint is one of common sense and fuel consumption. See what the boat/engine combination is happy with, and don't run any more throttle than that. You don't want to spend all that money on cavitation, but with a barge pusher you should be OK.
Funny, isn't it, that under sail a constant 3 or 4 knots is acceptable on passage, whereas some will see it as disastrous with auxiliary power.
I don't know where you're based, Niander, and I don't know where you're planning to travel from or to, but if you're around Poole and would like the loan of another motor as backup then PM me and we'll arrange it.
As a matter of interest, where will you be sailing?
petrol consumptuion
Hopefully anyone contemplating such a trip with a sailboat has enough experience and good sense to realize that they should treat the planning and execution of the trip as though they had no motor along.
Indeed, not much shipping!
Well you're not local to me but the offer stands if you would like to pick up one of my flock!
That has to be a beautiful voyage. Do take photos, and please post some here.
Check out:
http://www.jonnymooresailing.com/route for sailing around that area relying on a Seagul...
Well you're not local to me but the offer stands if you would like to pick up one of my flock!
That has to be a beautiful voyage. Do take photos, and please post some here.
Check out:
http://www.jonnymooresailing.com/route for sailing around that area relying on a Seagul...
You make a good point Charles, us rag and stick merchants are used to travelling everywhere at speeds ( I use the term loosely ) pure motor users find ridiculous! I also think there is a form of Horse power 'inflation', it used to be, I recall, 1hp per ton, whereas now no self respecting yacht would have less than 25 - 30 horses of inboard diesel power, most of this must be wasted? I currently have a 10hp outboard and at anything over about 1/3 the throttle is just a volume control.
I agree it is always handy to have power in reserve but there is a limit!
As a matter of interest when deciding what to drive my boat with I did some calculations using rough and ready equations from the net. My boat is an Invader 22 with LWL of 19ft which gave a rough hull speed of 4.5 knots. I worked out the number of horsepower to drive that hull ( displacing 3240lbs ) and it comes to 2.94Hp ( OK call it 3 !! )
This means my 40+ should be able, at full bore, to move my boat at hull speed! Of course it would have nothing in reserve to fight wind or waves, and would no doubt take its time getting there but as far as tides go, I can't do any better anyway!
I would obviously not want ( nor advocate ) to use the 40+ and have gone for something with a tad more ooomph but it does at least make the 40+ a viable backup for emergencies!
I agree it is always handy to have power in reserve but there is a limit!
As a matter of interest when deciding what to drive my boat with I did some calculations using rough and ready equations from the net. My boat is an Invader 22 with LWL of 19ft which gave a rough hull speed of 4.5 knots. I worked out the number of horsepower to drive that hull ( displacing 3240lbs ) and it comes to 2.94Hp ( OK call it 3 !! )
This means my 40+ should be able, at full bore, to move my boat at hull speed! Of course it would have nothing in reserve to fight wind or waves, and would no doubt take its time getting there but as far as tides go, I can't do any better anyway!
I would obviously not want ( nor advocate ) to use the 40+ and have gone for something with a tad more ooomph but it does at least make the 40+ a viable backup for emergencies!
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Ian Malcolm
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:42 am
- Location: London, ENGLAND
The *LARGEST* engine I've ever heard of being fitted to a Contessa 26 (slightly enlarged folkboat derivative) is a Yanmar 2GM20 (16 HP rated output). There just isn't room for anything bigger if you want a useable cockpit and/or main cabin. 30 HP in a Folkboat is right out there with political campaign promises . . . .
8 HP of inboard diesel will push a Contessa 26 (registered tonnage 3.32 Ton) at 6 knots (hull speed) in reasonably flat water. One can maintain 5 knots in any conditions that one is not shipping water and 3 knots average even if one is taking it green back to the mast. I also get 4 knots at under half throttle in normal conditions.
Based on that I'd expect a big block seagull to push you at 4 to 5 knots in flat water and a knot or so less in just about any conditions you can keep the prop in the water or when throttled back a bit.
For a trip that long, you could really do with some way of refuelling without having to take the tank cap off. a good few years back one of the UK yachting rags (PBO ?) published a readers project for a remote refuelling tank for a Seagull. It involved modifying a tank cap to have a central fuel line replacing the vent screw, drilling and tapping the cap to fit a vent off centre (pinhole slightly offset from a tapped hole with a small screw and fibre washer to close it) and most inportant, a needle valve and float that shut off the fuel line when the seagull's tank was full. The remote tank was kept at or below Seagull tank level and an inline primer bulb was used to pump fuel accross at intervals (presumably one would make it an hourly task) untill resistance was felt when the on-engine tank was full and the needle valve closed. It would avoid all that ****ing about hanging off the back trying to refuel as conditions deteriorate.
DO take a decent set of spares. Complete, assembled & tested carb with throttle cable fuel line and control lever (avoids dropping small parts off the back). Usual selection of nuts and bolts for it to discard along your route. Complete HT lead assy. Spare prop & washer, Standard onboard spares kit. Whatever bracket parts 102s normally consume. I wouldn't bother with a spare engine or any internal spares for one iin good condition.
I wouldn't tackle this trip in a flat calm unless I had serious rig problems as the price of fuel + the reasonable expectation of doing a passage of that length in daylight under sail would make waiting for a favorable wind desirable.
Presumably you've got the passage plan roughed out and have a reasonable grasp of the pilotage. If this is your first long trip, it helps if you know your destination and its approaches fairly well. Get a RNLI Seacheck and dont go till you've sorted any issues they raise. For coastal work like this, crew is essential and you may find your insurance is invalid if you go singlehanded. Assuming you do end up motoring for many hours, earplugs would be high on my list of comfort items.
8 HP of inboard diesel will push a Contessa 26 (registered tonnage 3.32 Ton) at 6 knots (hull speed) in reasonably flat water. One can maintain 5 knots in any conditions that one is not shipping water and 3 knots average even if one is taking it green back to the mast. I also get 4 knots at under half throttle in normal conditions.
Based on that I'd expect a big block seagull to push you at 4 to 5 knots in flat water and a knot or so less in just about any conditions you can keep the prop in the water or when throttled back a bit.
For a trip that long, you could really do with some way of refuelling without having to take the tank cap off. a good few years back one of the UK yachting rags (PBO ?) published a readers project for a remote refuelling tank for a Seagull. It involved modifying a tank cap to have a central fuel line replacing the vent screw, drilling and tapping the cap to fit a vent off centre (pinhole slightly offset from a tapped hole with a small screw and fibre washer to close it) and most inportant, a needle valve and float that shut off the fuel line when the seagull's tank was full. The remote tank was kept at or below Seagull tank level and an inline primer bulb was used to pump fuel accross at intervals (presumably one would make it an hourly task) untill resistance was felt when the on-engine tank was full and the needle valve closed. It would avoid all that ****ing about hanging off the back trying to refuel as conditions deteriorate.
DO take a decent set of spares. Complete, assembled & tested carb with throttle cable fuel line and control lever (avoids dropping small parts off the back). Usual selection of nuts and bolts for it to discard along your route. Complete HT lead assy. Spare prop & washer, Standard onboard spares kit. Whatever bracket parts 102s normally consume. I wouldn't bother with a spare engine or any internal spares for one iin good condition.
I wouldn't tackle this trip in a flat calm unless I had serious rig problems as the price of fuel + the reasonable expectation of doing a passage of that length in daylight under sail would make waiting for a favorable wind desirable.
Presumably you've got the passage plan roughed out and have a reasonable grasp of the pilotage. If this is your first long trip, it helps if you know your destination and its approaches fairly well. Get a RNLI Seacheck and dont go till you've sorted any issues they raise. For coastal work like this, crew is essential and you may find your insurance is invalid if you go singlehanded. Assuming you do end up motoring for many hours, earplugs would be high on my list of comfort items.
Very good point about refuelling - the very bane of the outboard motor!
British Seagull did actually produce a refueller along very similar lines to the method you describe. Based on a long range 102 tank with brass rod feet and handle, but without a bulb, they appear occasionally on eBay.
Mind you, I would be surprised if someone on here hasn't worked out a way of converting a 102 to a pumped remote supply.
British Seagull did actually produce a refueller along very similar lines to the method you describe. Based on a long range 102 tank with brass rod feet and handle, but without a bulb, they appear occasionally on eBay.
Mind you, I would be surprised if someone on here hasn't worked out a way of converting a 102 to a pumped remote supply.
Waggles,
The displacement speed equation is 1.6r, times the square root of the waterline length.
1.6 x 4.358 = 6.97.
You appear to of under estimated by 2.4 knots.
I will leave you to work out the HP
Not sure how you arrived at this.Invader 22 with LWL of 19ft which gave a rough hull speed of 4.5 knots.
The displacement speed equation is 1.6r, times the square root of the waterline length.
1.6 x 4.358 = 6.97.
You appear to of under estimated by 2.4 knots.
I will leave you to work out the HP
I wouldnt do it on my own
yes im gunna have to sort out a refuelling method ..how about one of those plastic petrol tanks with a bulb and a simple pipe to the top of the tank...pump it across when needed dnt see why it wouldnt work.
ear plugs...very gud idea...nd some for the crew!
Ive actually got 2 of these engines so a spare engine then
anyone hazard a guess at how much fuel it would take...10 gallons?...total guess btw
yes im gunna have to sort out a refuelling method ..how about one of those plastic petrol tanks with a bulb and a simple pipe to the top of the tank...pump it across when needed dnt see why it wouldnt work.
ear plugs...very gud idea...nd some for the crew!
Ive actually got 2 of these engines so a spare engine then
anyone hazard a guess at how much fuel it would take...10 gallons?...total guess btw