Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

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AusAnzani
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Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:18 am

Interesting subject title aye! Bear with me lol

For those of you who may not already be aware, J.E. Barden & Son of 449 Lygon Street, Brunswick, Victoria, Australia produced an outboard motor (the the Olympic Big 4) which looked very much like a British Seagull AD 102.
IMG_4559.JPG
Over the last couple of weeks, I've been fortunate to purchase two examples, both in rather poor condition, but hopefully sufficient to allow the build of one running unit with a few parts remaining.

The first, advertised on eBay was collected a little over a week ago. The second due to arrive later this week is from SOS member Hugz who responded to a request for parts on my facebook group Vintage Outboards Australia. Here they are;
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The most obvious differences between the Australian Olympic and the AD 102 is the flywheel magneto (made by Bailey Australia), the fuel tank mounts and straps and the forward mounted carry handle. All else looks to be the same until one takes a MUCH close look.

So here goes.
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 am

Lets start with a general view of the engine components.
IMG_6873_R.jpg
The cylinders appear almost identical externally. There are however some subtle differences in the castings to suggest those used by J.E. Barden may have been cast locally.

British Seagull AD 102 Left, Olympic Big 4 right.
IMG_6879_R.jpg
The Olympic is fitted with Brass Hex Head core plugs for easier flushing of the cylinders as and when the need arises.
IMG_6880_R.jpg
The British Seagull has a better spark plug recess, machined for better sealing.
IMG_6881_R.jpg
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:47 am

All ports in the Olympic feel larger. I will map these at next opportunity to provide a better comparison. Please excuse the poor picture quality.

British Seagull left, Olympic Big 4 right.
IMG_6885_R.jpg
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The crank in the Olympic Big 4 is much more substantial. The Bailey ignition comprises a crank mounted magnet and a chrome plated brass enclosed flywheel.

British Seagull left, Olympic Big 4 right.
IMG_6876_R.jpg
Pistons appear to be of the same dimensions. There are however sufficient differences to suggest those used in the Big 4 may have been cast locally. In addition, the gudgeon pins are closed at both ends via brass inserts.

British Seagull left, Olympic Big 4 right.
IMG_6887_R.jpg
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Hugz » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 am

Brilliant! Actually the AD did come with a brass hex head core plugs and also slotted ones. Your AD barrel has probably been replaced. Wow, look at the size of your crank!
2007-01-09 00.13.29.jpg
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 am

Crank cases are also very similar in appearance, with the most obvious difference being the bearing size and the end stops for the tiller. On closer inspection however, the castings particularly around the crank case bolts (studs) appear to be beafier on the Olympic Big 4.

Olympic Big 4 left, British Seagull AD 102 Right
IMG_6875_R.jpg
British Seagull AD 102 left, Olympic Big 4 right.
IMG_6877_R.jpg
Sorry to mix those up guys!

Plan now is to map cylinder ports and compare all other significant dimensions ie before moving on to the gearbox and water pump housings etc.

More to follow in due course.

Regards,
Spiro
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:04 am

Hugz wrote:Brilliant! Actually the AD did come with a brass hex head core plugs and also slotted ones. Your AD barrel has probably been replaced. Wow, look at the size of your crank!

2007-01-09 00.13.29.jpg
Very interesting Hugo. I've seen the slotted brass core plugs on early Seagulls before, but never the Hex. Always learning something new!

Regards,
Spiro

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Oyster 49
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Oyster 49 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:31 pm

interesting thread 8) Was the Olympic a licence made version of the seagull? What about the gearbox, how does that compare?

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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:28 am

Oyster 49 wrote:interesting thread 8) Was the Olympic a licence made version of the seagull? What about the gearbox, how does that compare?
i'm not aware of any licensing agreements but have not yet searched these forums for any prior posts.

Haven't quite got to the gearbox yet, but at first glance it appears more streamlined, and is with a much larger grease nipple than what we consider to be standard BS. The waterpump housing also has tapered sides as against the flat sides.

In more recent examples of the Olympic, the pump housing also comprises a cavitation plate (single casting) that looks rather nice. I am sure it would provide benefit in use too.

Don't know that I'll be able to post too much more on this until the coming weekend.

Stay tuned.

Regards,
Spiro

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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Collector Inspector » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 am

Well done S

These are rather special to me as you know in that my best one is somewhere at the end of production. I have one of the first examples as well but it does not present that well as being blinged.

It is really nice to see that all of the castings are different and piston/conrod manufacture is NOT anything that can be deemed BS supply parts. This question has been asked many years ago but I have never myself been willing to pull any of mine down to show what you have just done.

As mentioned just now, and in the past, some bandy about was to do with building under liscence from BS for the Australian market.

While there is no sourced documentation to either support or detract that possibility I personally believe that, as an open concept for such a motor, production commenced as being a somewhat respectable and accepted format for a current single cylinder 4hp at the time.

Good work.

Await for more detail as pulling apart reveals .

Thumbs up and

Regards

BnC
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Charles uk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:11 pm

Spiro thread types would be interesting.

Some time ago I bought a couple of pistons from Australia was told they were probably for Olympics, but one was 10 thou oversize & one 30.

If you have a square cut piston ring push one into both cylinders & measure the gap with a feeler gauge, I sure someone told me the Olympics were 10 thou bigger than a std Seagull & check the gudgeon pins both should be 1/2".

Your doing some excellent work here!
This is one of the very few answers that you couldn't find in earlier threads!

Now all we need is someone to do the same thing with a Montessa.

Thanks very much!
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:31 am

Bruce, let me say if this was a tidy as "Tiller" it would not have been pulled apart either. You've done the right thing in keeping that together!

Charles, I'm as keen as you are to learn more about these things. Some additional pieces of information I can share right now, more to follow over the coming weekend!

1. These are often referred to by outboard collectors in Australia as the "BIG seagull" or the "Seagull on Steroids". Not having compared them previously, I did not understand that commentary, but I do understand now. everything seems to be built heavier.
2. The Olympic weights in at just shy of 22kg dry. What is the weight of an AD 102?
3. There appears to be differences in the alloys used ie Olympic vs Seagull
4. There appears to be a difference in the cast iron used.
5. All hardware checked on the Olympic thus far is UNC / UNF. No sign of BSW or BSF but I am yet to check any of the gearbox fittings.
6. Barrel studs are 1/4 UNC / UNC. Engine mount studs are 5/6 UNC / UNC. Charles, if you click and zoom the first picture of the barrels (top view) you can see the differences in the threads. Same also with the first picture of the lower crank case halves.
7. The piston rings are with square ends. Both my AD 102's have ring ends shaped to fit around the stop pin.
8. The stop pins are centrally located withing the ring groove on the Olympic. On the Seagull only half of the stop pin sits in the ring groove.
9. My Olympic and my AD 102's have H beam conrods. The castings do however appear different. Interestingly one of Bruce's olympic parts motor has a flat conrod with the SEAGULL name cast.

With the exception of threads, all inspection so far have been by eye. Measurements will be taken and posted next opportunity.

Regards,
Spiro
Last edited by AusAnzani on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:08 am

Just looking at an old Seagull brochure (SOS main page), the weight given for a 102 series is 40lbs.

The Olympic brochure states 47lbs. Hugo weighed his Olympic at 21.7kg, equivalent to 47.74lbs

So the Olympic is almost 20% heavier than the typical 102 series!

Regards,
Spiro

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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Collector Inspector » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:27 am

"Interestingly one of Bruce's olympic parts motor has a flat conrod with the SEAGULL name cast."

That would be from Steve making one out of two that I supplied to him? I think in a convo that he mentioned that.

I have all of the unused parts back now. I will let you know if there is an engine number on the returned power head. Maybe contacting Steve for the engine number with the Seagull rod could be sourced?

I will lift the cylinder of the returned one and get back with what it is or is not aye.

Keep going Mate and regards

BnC
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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by AusAnzani » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:41 am

Steve being Steve lol

I think I spotted 417 or 471 on one of your parts engines. Should have copied the photo to here.

The one I've stripped down is 276. I will advise number from the Hugo purchase once received. It is currently in transit, Couriers Please, $47 Sydney to Melbourne. Put that in the memory bank aye!

A friend here (Ed) believes he has 176, also in need of parts. I will see what I can help him with when the time comes.

Regards
S

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Re: Australian Olympic vs British Seagull AD102

Post by Charles uk » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:43 am

Spiro is the crankshaft 1 piece or 3?

Good pics of the flywheel & ignition would be interesting.

It's becoming obvious that all parts were "local production".

It's also looking like there was no relationship with British Seagull, or they would have bought Seagull cylinders, as the cost of making 500 or a 1000 cylinders would far exceed the purchase & shipping costs.

It just might be different enough, not to be considered a clone & in those days Australia was a very long way from England & wasn't this around the time that the Aussies were trying to stimulate their own manufacturing industries with import restrictions on everything except £10 skilled Poms!
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